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Old 01-18-2020, 05:04 AM   #1
JIM THEO
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From Gruppe-S to ACE club sport 400 headers

MY18 EUDM BRZ (black intake manifold) currently running Gruppe-S headers and K&N drop in filter remapped with local 100RON fuel (EU) no much better than your ACN91. Actually the car hasn't the low-mid torque I'd like so my plan is to fit the ACE CS400 headers.

I read that recently ACE headers have fitting issues, CS400 are designed for RHD cars so is this a common problem with these headers and LHD cars?

But most important there aren't local tuners that can remap my car, if I use Wayne ROM as base map that I'll optimize with the help of a friend experienced with this platform could I extract the low-mid range torque I am searching for?

*If someone has a dyno with the CS400 I'd really appreciate it if you post it and mention other modifications and tuner, I know Delicious Tuning is the best around for these headers but I'd prefer someone closer, my belief is that we marry our tuners after the remap...

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Old 01-18-2020, 06:53 AM   #2
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On LHD you should be safe to get A350. As for tune, for Ace headers i suggest to get DT tune (ecutek). Ace headers doesn't show up that much gains (which probably were reason to buy those headers in first place) with OTS tunes, hence suggestion to go for DT tunes. Buy it, install, send logs back, they will tweak/release update revision(-s) and you should be ok. Most probably result will be much better with DT tune, despite "not local"/"remotely", then with some local tuner that hasn't spent that much time to get specific tune for these headers right (dyno time & tuner's time costs, a lot). There might be competent tuners around locally, i don't want to belittle anyone, but they simply won't have as much experience to dial specifically these and you won't have budget for them to replicate those hundreds of dyno runs and month(-s?) of fine-tuning tune to get result on par with DT's.
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Old 01-18-2020, 07:07 AM   #3
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Don t worry, I mapped a buy with a 2018 EU BRZ with CS400
they fit good
Also ace350 fit good
The only thing you have to worry, you have to hammer some points of the under-cover or they touch it and make annoying noise

I can share with you the cam timings I ended up with after more than 80 reflashes and volumetric efficiency analysis on 2 different cars with those headers, I don't really mind

The zone around the dip wil be really good
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Old 01-18-2020, 10:26 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by churchx View Post
On LHD you should be safe to get A350. As for tune, for Ace headers i suggest to get DT tune (ecutek). Ace headers doesn't show up that much gains (which probably were reason to buy those headers in first place) with OTS tunes, hence suggestion to go for DT tunes. Buy it, install, send logs back, they will tweak/release update revision(-s) and you should be ok. Most probably result will be much better with DT tune, despite "not local"/"remotely", then with some local tuner that hasn't spent that much time to get specific tune for these headers right (dyno time & tuner's time costs, a lot). There might be competent tuners around locally, i don't want to belittle anyone, but they simply won't have as much experience to dial specifically these and you won't have budget for them to replicate those hundreds of dyno runs and month(-s?) of fine-tuning tune to get result on par with DT's.
I still prefer the CS400 over the 350 cause I drive mainly in the mid-range area where they have advantage.
I thought DT send OTS maps for ACE headers and that's it, you tell me they send the base map and adjust it according to user logs which means some revisions until the car is fine, which package is this from their site?


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Originally Posted by tomm.brz
Don t worry, I mapped a buy with a 2018 EU BRZ with CS400
they fit good
Also ace350 fit good
The only thing you have to worry, you have to hammer some points of the under-cover or they touch it and make annoying noise

I can share with you the cam timings I ended up with after more than 80 reflashes and volumetric efficiency analysis on 2 different cars with those headers, I don't really mind

The zone around the dip wil be really good
Thanks for your kind offer Tom, as always helpful, although I haven't make my decision yet I may need those AVCS maps if they suit CS400 without other exhaust pieces, are they for CS400 specifically or for 350?
I have read CS400 hit the undercover and I wonder why ACE didn't correct it yet, is this a CS400 problem or 350 too?
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Old 01-18-2020, 10:38 AM   #5
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cs400 definitely has the problem
but also for my 350 I did hammer a bit anyway just to be sure
it takes 5 minutes

I developed those cam timing with cs400 in a NA car, and the dip is definitely gone, it's ok if you don't wanna try
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Old 01-18-2020, 11:11 AM   #6
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Dip was gone even with stock tune, or OFT OTS tune, from what i recall from those dyno runs few years ago in ace's thread. But gain was ~+5whp . Probably better with longtube header related changes such as those floating around for nameless/PLM and alike and/or local custom tunes.. but still, got impression, that best gains were via DT. So yes, dip gone, but do you need performance gain level like that could be gained with other, cheaper, headers, after all, you paid premium with specific aim?
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Old 01-18-2020, 12:06 PM   #7
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it's not some magic voodoo thing, tune a car specially NA
if wheel hp gain was low was because they were rich and low ignition timing probably

Once you spot good cam timing that ehnances the VE, then you set a good afr target, considering that the Ace headers allow for a slight leaner afr, make the lambda follow the target, set the ignition timings to reach knock limit, cut them off a little bit and you are done powerwise
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Old 01-18-2020, 12:57 PM   #8
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Not magic .. but most OTS tunes revolve around OH UEL design and usually i seen lower results with non-DT tunes on Ace's, when tried to see relative gain if there was also baseline. Due longtube headers not being that common for twins, tuners that just slightly tweak timings of existing tunes, might be handicapped a bit.
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Old 01-18-2020, 01:11 PM   #9
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Not magic .. but most OTS tunes revolve around OH UEL design and usually i seen lower results with non-DT tunes on Ace's, when tried to see relative gain if there was also baseline. Due longtube headers not being that common for twins, tuners that just slightly tweak timings of existing tunes, might be handicapped a bit.
i wasn t surely referring to an untouched ots tune in my reply, i though was obvious you would need to modify it to adapt to an ace header.. Cam timing, afr, and ignition timing and much more to start with

I have nothing against DT, he can be as good as other world knows master tuners, but i still haven t seen yet a before-after dyno of ace header tuned by DT or CSG that replicate the gains they claim
I mean, dyno pulls NOT done by them, but from users who bought ace headers and their tunes
It s too easy to cheat on dyno and without proof that can prove the dyno pulls are reliable, i simply don t trust it much

in Europe a stock car gives us 133whp more or less and , with 100ron (93/94oct) and in US you have 200whp with 91oct and a claimed 50whp of gains from a header and tune with shitty fuel.. something is strange
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Old 01-18-2020, 01:16 PM   #10
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WayneRoms has tunes designed around the ACE header as well. Not quite sure why there is the misconception that when using OFT you can only use OTS tunes...
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Old 01-18-2020, 04:36 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomm.brz View Post
i wasn t surely referring to an untouched ots tune in my reply, i though was obvious you would need to modify it to adapt to an ace header.. Cam timing, afr, and ignition timing and much more to start with

I have nothing against DT, he can be as good as other world knows master tuners, but i still haven t seen yet a before-after dyno of ace header tuned by DT or CSG that replicate the gains they claim
I mean, dyno pulls NOT done by them, but from users who bought ace headers and their tunes
It s too easy to cheat on dyno and without proof that can prove the dyno pulls are reliable, i simply don t trust it much

in Europe a stock car gives us 133whp more or less and , with 100ron (93/94oct) and in US you have 200whp with 91oct and a claimed 50whp of gains from a header and tune with shitty fuel.. something is strange
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...&postcount=107
201WHP on E85 on 949's car and dyno using and ACE header and delicious tune. 200whp on 91 in ideal conditions with everything set up perfect... maybe. 180 WHP on 91 ain't bad either, considering the torque curve.

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Finally dyno'd on corn. Found 21whp. Not sure if Delicious can find more but we are very happy with this. For science, we are going to try a new JDL 4:2:1 and see how it compares.

Blub has a 2.5" metal core cat in the midpipe, just behind the FP.
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Old 01-18-2020, 04:43 PM   #12
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WayneRoms has tunes designed around the ACE header as well. Not quite sure why there is the misconception that when using OFT you can only use OTS tunes...
Exactly but I didn't find even one user with ACE headers and Wayne ROM so it's unknown if it's well calibrated or not!

I wonder also Tom how our cars can't replicate those gains USDM cars produce, even when comparing the Gruppe-S headers, I thought is our Greek 100RON fuel, and why the newer cars (>MY17) max ignition timing is always lower compared with older generations and same exactly mods!
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Old 01-18-2020, 04:47 PM   #13
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I have nothing against DT, he can be as good as other world knows master tuners, but i still haven t seen yet a before-after dyno of ace header tuned by DT or CSG that replicate the gains they claim
I mean, dyno pulls NOT done by them, but from users who bought ace headers and their tunes
It s too easy to cheat on dyno and without proof that can prove the dyno pulls are reliable, i simply don t trust it much

in Europe a stock car gives us 133whp more or less and , with 100ron (93/94oct) and in US you have 200whp with 91oct and a claimed 50whp of gains from a header and tune with shitty fuel.. something is strange
These dyno figures aren't on independent dyno or am I wrong?
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125559
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Old 01-18-2020, 06:08 PM   #14
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Exactly but I didn't find even one user with ACE headers and Wayne ROM so it's unknown if it's well calibrated or not!

I wonder also Tom how our cars can't replicate those gains USDM cars produce, even when comparing the Gruppe-S headers, I thought is our Greek 100RON fuel, and why the newer cars (>MY17) max ignition timing is always lower compared with older generations and same exactly mods!
we do replicate the gains on our cars in europe, it s America that has crazy unbelievable absolute results.. Higher than any other dyno in the world for the same exact torque/power we produce
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