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Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting What these cars were built for!


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Old 06-12-2013, 11:34 AM   #15
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How do I grow a bigger pair of cajones?

(Heart says GO! Brain says... NO!)
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Old 06-12-2013, 11:34 AM   #16
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At what level of modified grip (tires/suspension) does the engine oiling system need to be modified?

I see a lot of Subie wrx's die at the track with apparent bottom end failure from oil starvation. High G corners with sticky tires seems like dry-sump will eventually be needed like the P cars run.
The highest grip tires I've driven is @robispec's car on Hoosier A6. The car, afaik, did not have any oil starvation issues, and I'm pretty damn attentive when it comes to lights and warnings.

That being said, if you look at our engine failure, the journal bearing on our cyl 2 is pretty heavily damaged, but our oil level wasn't ever low, and we never ran anything stickier than a 235 R-Comp, ever.

The absolute limit of lateral G before oil starvation is yet to be determined. However, the oil pan design seems to be pretty good for pickup...



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Old 06-12-2013, 11:36 AM   #17
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Where(rpm) do you downshift (whats your cutoff for the extra shift being worth the extra torque)?
It really depends on how long you're going to be in that lower gear. If you were to go strictly by the numbers, you want to downshift (if it's possible) anytime you're lower than 6k rpm. In reality, I rarely downshift unless I'm under 5k, unless it's in a higher gear (in which case I shouldn't be in the wrong gear to begin with).

Data is the best way to determine this.
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Old 06-12-2013, 11:37 AM   #18
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How do I grow a bigger pair of cajones?

(Heart says GO! Brain says... NO!)
Have someone with a larger pair drive your car and/or sit with them (if they have the same/similar car). When you see that someone else can do it, you'll gain more confidence in your own car.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:26 PM   #19
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This. I was able to more effectively navigate the track after a ride-along with you at WSIR. I can't wait to see how the new wheels and tires handle!

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Have someone with a larger pair drive your car and/or sit with them (if they have the same/similar car). When you see that someone else can do it, you'll gain more confidence in your own car.
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Old 06-12-2013, 01:25 PM   #20
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How significant are lighter weight wheels on cornering speeds/lap times? Do you gain mostly in braking/accelerating?

Also I feel like my transmission is getting rocked around as the shift nob moves all over the place through corners and over bumps..will harsher mounts really improve anything or more just feel?

For camber is -1.8F and -1.2R a good set up for street use and occasional track (HPDE) use?
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Old 06-12-2013, 03:30 PM   #21
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How significant are lighter weight wheels on cornering speeds/lap times? Do you gain mostly in braking/accelerating?

Also I feel like my transmission is getting rocked around as the shift nob moves all over the place through corners and over bumps..will harsher mounts really improve anything or more just feel?

For camber is -1.8F and -1.2R a good set up for street use and occasional track (HPDE) use?
It's difficult to quantify in lap times. While they do have an effect in reducing rotational inertia and unsprung mass, your average driver will likely benefit more from seat time and experience, than a single mod like lighter wheels. Don't get me wrong, even little mods all contribute to a potentially faster lap time. If I were to put a figure on it, I'd guesstimate a quarter second on a 2 minute lap.

Harsher mounts will reduce play. Long term effects are still unknown, but based on anecdotal evidence from other cars, I'd speculate that it'll reduce movement, and increase wear on the components that are being stressed more by the lack of movement.

If you're trying to find a good balance of tire life and maximizing tire potential on grip, that seems to be a pretty fair amount of camber. Adjust according to wear to maximize life; adjust by pyrometer for maximum grip.
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:37 PM   #22
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  • What average oil temperatures do you see on track after about 20 minutes?
  • Would oem rear brake pads take the heat, after around 20 minute track sessions, and still survive for many sessions?
  • Is there any good dual purpose street/track brake pad you would recommend for the front brakes for someone wanting long rotor and pad life?
  • Do you feel that the brakes are not used much on track due to the lower top speeds?
  • Do you find driving instructors hurt lap times too much due to their added weight and it's better to drive solo?
Thank you,
Tom
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:02 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by track junkie View Post
  • What average oil temperatures do you see on track after about 20 minutes?
  • Would oem rear brake pads take the heat, after around 20 minute track sessions, and still survive for many sessions?
  • Is there any good dual purpose street/track brake pad you would recommend for the front brakes for someone wanting long rotor and pad life?
  • Do you feel that the brakes are not used much on track due to the lower top speeds?
  • Do you find driving instructors hurt lap times too much due to their added weight and it's better to drive solo?
Thank you,
Tom
270F has been reported, but YMMV. We haven't logged temps ourselves.

Will OEM rear pads last with front race pads? Sure. Keep in mind, your brake bias will be at the front, and you're going to be overworking the fronts, leading to significantly decreased front brake pad life. I recommend using similar compounds front and rear. If you don't do the pedal dance, then your rears will overheat and wear quickly.

Compromise/mixed-duty/hybrid pads are, by definition, a compromise. Nothing does it all. That being said, I street drive on race pads, and with proper bedding, noise is minimal; my setup easily passes the "girl test". If you want long pad life, invest in a big brake kit, and proper brake cooling (ducts).

Brakes not used much compared to what?

If you have/need an in-car instructor, forget about your lap times. Focus on the coaching you're getting, and your lap times will naturally drop. If you're still carrying an in-car instructor, their knowledge and guidance will far outweigh the extra weight. FWIW, the extra weight isn't a huge lap time difference to begin with. In my case, less than 1s on a 2:00 lap with a ~160lb passenger.
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Old 06-13-2013, 07:36 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
270F has been reported, but YMMV. We haven't logged temps ourselves.

Will OEM rear pads last with front race pads? Sure. Keep in mind, your brake bias will be at the front, and you're going to be overworking the fronts, leading to significantly decreased front brake pad life. I recommend using similar compounds front and rear. If you don't do the pedal dance, then your rears will overheat and wear quickly.

Compromise/mixed-duty/hybrid pads are, by definition, a compromise. Nothing does it all. That being said, I street drive on race pads, and with proper bedding, noise is minimal; my setup easily passes the "girl test". If you want long pad life, invest in a big brake kit, and proper brake cooling (ducts).

Brakes not used much compared to what? A C6 Z06.
I bought the BRZ as my track car with the "training" motor. I am hopeful that I can keep the BRZ in one big piece.

If you have/need an in-car instructor, forget about your lap times. Focus on the coaching you're getting, and your lap times will naturally drop. If you're still carrying an in-car instructor, their knowledge and guidance will far outweigh the extra weight. FWIW, the extra weight isn't a huge lap time difference to begin with. In my case, less than 1s on a 2:00 lap with a ~160lb passenger.

Thanks for your help, I will try track pads front and rear.
Maybe wimpy track pads like the Ferodo 2500.
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Old 06-13-2013, 10:18 PM   #25
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Stupid question, but kinda track related. Where does one go to get helmets? I cant seem to find anyplace near Dallas that has them that I can try on. I have a large melon, and helmets (football, for example) have always been a problem for me, in size, comfort, etc. and I would really prefer to put it on before I buy one....
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Old 06-13-2013, 10:22 PM   #26
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What camber and caster would you recommend?
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Old 06-13-2013, 10:45 PM   #27
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First off, thanks a bunch for putting your time into this thread, you're really helping the community out here.

Down to the questions, albeit rather...."unanswerable"

What would be your top 10 AutoX and HPDE performance/preventative maintenance "modifications" for the budget minded driver? Many of us new owners are young, without a ton of money to throw at the car, but want to enjoy it for what it is meant for. While I realize AutoX and tracking the car are ENTIRELY different situations, what are the best things you can do to add performance and maximize the life of the vehicle in its entirety?

FWIW from my research the winner is a tire upgrade, followed by things like upgraded differential fluid (as some have found it to be "burnt" after track use), crash bolts, pads, sway bar etc...

Also, if the answer to my first question didn't cover this, how concerned should us weekend warriors be with all the elasticity of the rear end? Do you think this compliance helps with component life in general, or would stiffening things up be better for the twins?

Again, I realize these questions lay heavily on preference, but your opinion will certainly be taken more seriously than all those of the keyboard warriors on this forum.
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Old 06-14-2013, 12:11 PM   #28
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What camber and caster would you recommend?
I don't know... what car would you recommend? The more data you can provide me, the more data I can interpret and give you feedback on.

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Stupid question, but kinda track related. Where does one go to get helmets? I cant seem to find anyplace near Dallas that has them that I can try on. I have a large melon, and helmets (football, for example) have always been a problem for me, in size, comfort, etc. and I would really prefer to put it on before I buy one....
Try your local motorcycle/powersports store, or ask nicely at an event (and use a head sock)

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What would be your top 10 AutoX and HPDE performance/preventative maintenance "modifications" for the budget minded driver? Many of us new owners are young, without a ton of money to throw at the car, but want to enjoy it for what it is meant for. While I realize AutoX and tracking the car are ENTIRELY different situations, what are the best things you can do to add performance and maximize the life of the vehicle in its entirety?

FWIW from my research the winner is a tire upgrade, followed by things like upgraded differential fluid (as some have found it to be "burnt" after track use), crash bolts, pads, sway bar etc...
Top 10 mods? Even the CSG car only has 4... but lets see what I can come up wit

Budget friendly and what I consider essential mods in Italics.

Performance:
- Good dampers (cannot stress this enough)
- Camber Bolts and/or camber plates
- Alignment (only if you have alignment mods... otherwise you can only do toe)
- Good tires

Preventative mods/parts/maintenance
- Appropriate brake pads front and rear, not just front; prevents brake fade (you don't want your brakes to stop working)
- Appropriate brake fluid; prevents brake fluid from boiling or pedal getting mushy (same as above)
- Big brake kit (reduces operating cost SUBSTANTIALLY)
- Alignment (bad alignment will increase tire wear and decrease performance)
- Good fluids for oil, trans, diff (something that can take high temps)
- Oil cooler (keeps oil... cooler)
- Larger Radiator (stock radiator barely keeps engine cool)
- Tune (until they fix that transient ignition timing map thats destroying injector collars..)

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Originally Posted by Thorpedo View Post
Also, if the answer to my first question didn't cover this, how concerned should us weekend warriors be with all the elasticity of the rear end? Do you think this compliance helps with component life in general, or would stiffening things up be better for the twins?

Again, I realize these questions lay heavily on preference, but your opinion will certainly be taken more seriously than all those of the keyboard warriors on this forum.
Compliance generally reduces NVH, and increases life by absorbing the shock loads. The CSG BRZ is using all stock components when it comes to compliance, EXCEPT for the TiC steering rack bushings (which is used to increase feedback to the driver through the steering wheel).

If I were building a high budget race car, bushings would be on my short list... but I wouldn't want to daily drive that car.
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