follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
86SPEED
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Scion FR-S Forum | Subaru BRZ Forum | Toyota 86 GT 86 Forum | AS1 Forum - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting

Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting What these cars were built for!


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-03-2013, 03:32 PM   #15
johhnc479
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Drives: White FRS, 2002 Boxster S, 1986 944
Location: Damascus, MD
Posts: 61
Thanks: 8
Thanked 11 Times in 9 Posts
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave-ROR View Post
Good write up.

In our cars the traction control light flashes before you are doing anything stupid and sometimes when you are doing stuff right (trail braking for me, any braking near bumps, etc).

I push people to turn it off as early as possible otherwise they rely on it. I met an instructor recently who made the comment that his DSP (or whatever BMW calls it) light flashing made him realize he was pushing too hard... yeah.. an instructor.... I've noticed with my BRZ that the traction control system in sport mode kicks in all the time at sebring, with it off, the car doesn't doing anything bad and since it's not activating much faster and *SMOOTHER* driving is possible.
I went through instructor training last year and their (PCA) preference was to generally leave driver aids on. Makes sense - job #1 is to not let the student wad up the car. My struggle from the right seat was trying to "feel" for electronics. A few times a student would make a mistake, and I was 90% sure electronics stepped in. But damned if I could feel it.

The FRS is my first car with electonics, so maybe experiencing some electronic corrections myself will help out.
johhnc479 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2013, 03:39 PM   #16
Dave-ROR
Site Moderator
 
Dave-ROR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Drives: Stuff
Location: Florida
Posts: 9,491
Thanks: 711
Thanked 4,864 Times in 2,202 Posts
Mentioned: 204 Post(s)
Tagged: 8 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by johhnc479 View Post
I went through instructor training last year and their (PCA) preference was to generally leave driver aids on. Makes sense - job #1 is to not let the student wad up the car. My struggle from the right seat was trying to "feel" for electronics. A few times a student would make a mistake, and I was 90% sure electronics stepped in. But damned if I could feel it.

The FRS is my first car with electonics, so maybe experiencing some electronic corrections myself will help out.
PCA's preference is to let old guys who can't drive be safe on track, but *instructors* should not have aids on IMO. You want novices to? Great, go ahead. But how is an instructor going to teach someone with a 93 911 RS America with no aids how to control the car if they don't know how to drive their own car without aids on? That's the problem with instructors using driver aids.

You'll feel the aids in the FRS for sure. Turn them off, and you'll wonder what the heck the computers were complaining about I left them on at first in the BRZ while getting used to the car. It was a mistake.. they were constantly engaging and all they really accomplished was me having to wonder why the car had that bad of a traction problem.. turned them off and it was great.

Eventually the aids will just hold you back as a student too. They are not exactly smooth in these cars, they cause additional rear brake wear and they engage well before there's any risk of anything happening. IMO no experienced student should learn to rely on them for track driving.

I leave them on for street driving of course, I see zero benefit to turning them off on the street.
__________________
-Dave
HPDE/DD: 2018 Camaro ZL1 1LE || HPDE/DD: 2015 Subaru BRZ ||Tow Vehicle: 2004 GMC Sierra 2500 8.1L || Weekend toy: 1994 MR2 Turbo || The other weekend toy: 1993 MR2 Turbo || Track car: 1998 Integra Type-R || Race car: 1996 Integra GS-R || New race car build: 1992 Honda Civic Hatchback

Too many cars.. never.
Dave-ROR is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Dave-ROR For This Useful Post:
funwheeldrive (03-25-2015), jonnyozero3 (02-28-2013), SirBrass (05-10-2014), SkullWorks (05-22-2013), Sonolin (05-22-2013), TAP Auto Parts (01-03-2013)
Old 01-03-2013, 04:35 PM   #17
CSG David
FT86Club Official Vendor
 
CSG David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: California
Posts: 2,109
Thanks: 535
Thanked 1,710 Times in 953 Posts
Mentioned: 166 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
I sat in a FRS with all the driver aids on and I firmly believe that if the student didn't have the aids, the car would have spun. At that track, I think it would have been a very definitive experience to understand what happens when you continue to steer through a corner with excessive gas. On top of that, the aids won't teach the driver how to use their hands in the event of a slide.
CSG David is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CSG David For This Useful Post:
zdr93523 (08-16-2014)
Old 01-03-2013, 04:47 PM   #18
johhnc479
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Drives: White FRS, 2002 Boxster S, 1986 944
Location: Damascus, MD
Posts: 61
Thanks: 8
Thanked 11 Times in 9 Posts
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I don't want my students to wad up their car just in the name of "learning". It's not like the east coast tracks are F1 tracks with fancy groomed runoff area. Its track, grass, then something hard. IMHO skid pad and autox are the places to turn off the aids when getting started. I do think having some experience driving with the aids will help me as an instructor. You think "identifying" with a 93 RS America is hard, try jumping from a stock 944 into the ubiquitous GT3's we've got in the novice group around here.

I doubt too many PCA instructors around here drive with the aids on.
johhnc479 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to johhnc479 For This Useful Post:
TAP Auto Parts (01-03-2013)
Old 01-03-2013, 05:26 PM   #19
gmookher
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Drives: VortechSC,BorlaEL,Perrin,GCRace
Location: HighHeatHighAltitudeAZ,USA
Posts: 2,254
Thanks: 458
Thanked 667 Times in 392 Posts
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
just my opinion, dont go do this and crash: turn it all off, take instruction and learn. thats why tracks have gravel at the edge of a corner, paying for instruction is the best upgrade you can do when you're at a track, do it.
most good instructors will take you round the track reallly slow at first, then faster or not based on your abilities..tell them youre a noob if you are, no shame there.

I love taking rides with instructors, always room to improve lines, techinques etc, on a new track, theres nothing better than going out with someone who knows where to put your ass on a corner

them stacked tires before you hit said wall are a hundred yards out. or hopefully far enough at your instructed entry speed to not be an issue!
traction aids are NOT for the track. defeats the purpose if youre trying to learn or improve YOUR skills

when you get to where you dont need a coach or a nanny, you'll know, but most everyone can benefit seat time and instruction, atleast their 1st time round a new track, simple
gmookher is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to gmookher For This Useful Post:
CSG Mike (01-03-2013), Dave-ROR (01-03-2013), SirBrass (05-10-2014)
Old 01-03-2013, 05:31 PM   #20
CSG David
FT86Club Official Vendor
 
CSG David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: California
Posts: 2,109
Thanks: 535
Thanked 1,710 Times in 953 Posts
Mentioned: 166 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by johhnc479 View Post
I don't want my students to wad up their car just in the name of "learning". It's not like the east coast tracks are F1 tracks with fancy groomed runoff area. Its track, grass, then something hard. IMHO skid pad and autox are the places to turn off the aids when getting started. I do think having some experience driving with the aids will help me as an instructor. You think "identifying" with a 93 RS America is hard, try jumping from a stock 944 into the ubiquitous GT3's we've got in the novice group around here.

I doubt too many PCA instructors around here drive with the aids on.
The type of instruction is quite important. I believe students need to ride with their instructors after they get a feel for the track so they can understand the differences between excessive speed and proper speed. This important so they can build up their confidence and understand the differences between their abilities and what they can achieve.
CSG David is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CSG David For This Useful Post:
Dave-ROR (01-03-2013), zdr93523 (08-09-2014)
Old 01-03-2013, 05:33 PM   #21
Dave-ROR
Site Moderator
 
Dave-ROR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Drives: Stuff
Location: Florida
Posts: 9,491
Thanks: 711
Thanked 4,864 Times in 2,202 Posts
Mentioned: 204 Post(s)
Tagged: 8 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by johhnc479 View Post
I don't want my students to wad up their car just in the name of "learning". It's not like the east coast tracks are F1 tracks with fancy groomed runoff area. Its track, grass, then something hard. IMHO skid pad and autox are the places to turn off the aids when getting started. I do think having some experience driving with the aids will help me as an instructor. You think "identifying" with a 93 RS America is hard, try jumping from a stock 944 into the ubiquitous GT3's we've got in the novice group around here.

I doubt too many PCA instructors around here drive with the aids on.
I never suggested that, and in fact I think Novices should leave them on. With some experience, they are a negative though. At some point the aids absolutely do prevent progression. I dunno, I guess I just want students to continue to progress. At events I run we won't let novices or even intermediate students run R comps and strongly suggest aids stay on for the novice group (at the end of the day that's up to the driver and instructor though).

Tons of GT3s here also with R Comps and brand new drivers.. it's somewhat ridiculous actually. I wasn't picking a hard to drive car as the example, but rather one without aids..

My original point was just that the slip light flashing doesn't mean the driver/student is doing anything bad in these cars and that relying on the aids by never turning them off is, IMO, a bad habit. The Instructor bit was just an example of a case why it's bad.
__________________
-Dave
HPDE/DD: 2018 Camaro ZL1 1LE || HPDE/DD: 2015 Subaru BRZ ||Tow Vehicle: 2004 GMC Sierra 2500 8.1L || Weekend toy: 1994 MR2 Turbo || The other weekend toy: 1993 MR2 Turbo || Track car: 1998 Integra Type-R || Race car: 1996 Integra GS-R || New race car build: 1992 Honda Civic Hatchback

Too many cars.. never.
Dave-ROR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2013, 05:38 PM   #22
Dave-ROR
Site Moderator
 
Dave-ROR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Drives: Stuff
Location: Florida
Posts: 9,491
Thanks: 711
Thanked 4,864 Times in 2,202 Posts
Mentioned: 204 Post(s)
Tagged: 8 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmookher View Post
just my opinion, dont go do this and crash: turn it all off, take instruction and learn. thats why tracks have gravel at the edge of a corner, paying for instruction is the best upgrade you can do when you're at a track, do it.
most good instructors will take you round the track reallly slow at first, then faster or not based on your abilities..tell them youre a noob if you are, no shame there.

I love taking rides with instructors, always room to improve lines, techinques etc, on a new track, theres nothing better than going out with someone who knows where to put your ass on a corner

them stacked tires before you hit said wall are a hundred yards out. or hopefully far enough at your instructed entry speed to not be an issue!
traction aids are NOT for the track. defeats the purpose if youre trying to learn or improve YOUR skills

when you get to where you dont need a coach or a nanny, you'll know, but most everyone can benefit seat time and instruction, atleast their 1st time round a new track, simple
I agree in general, but not all tracks are as friendly for offs. I've been in tire walls before, it's not fun. I did learn a lot doing it though
__________________
-Dave
HPDE/DD: 2018 Camaro ZL1 1LE || HPDE/DD: 2015 Subaru BRZ ||Tow Vehicle: 2004 GMC Sierra 2500 8.1L || Weekend toy: 1994 MR2 Turbo || The other weekend toy: 1993 MR2 Turbo || Track car: 1998 Integra Type-R || Race car: 1996 Integra GS-R || New race car build: 1992 Honda Civic Hatchback

Too many cars.. never.
Dave-ROR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2013, 06:37 PM   #23
CSG Mike
 
CSG Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 12,618
Thanks: 7,783
Thanked 12,221 Times in 5,829 Posts
Mentioned: 860 Post(s)
Tagged: 13 Thread(s)
I generally try to do a quick interview with my students to determine where they're at in terms of driving development. I ask what cars they've driven, and what kind of "spirited" driving they've done. If this is their first time doing anything high performance with a car, electronic aids are going to stay on. If they've been canyoning for years in a 240 with no aids, and want to start learning to master their car, the aids are probably going off.

It's pretty easy to gauge where students are with a quick interview based on their attitude and what they're talking about. It's also pretty easy to gauge if they have a good feel for their car on track when you're sitting next to them. It's not uncommon for me to recommend a student to turn aids back on, or to turn them off in the middle of a session based on how they're doing. I've been known to turn the aids off without telling them from time to time if I feel comfortable; I'm in the car with them and I certainly am not going to risk wrecking.
CSG Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CSG Mike For This Useful Post:
amram (03-27-2014)
Old 01-03-2013, 06:47 PM   #24
Kido1986
Dodging cones
 
Kido1986's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Drives: 2013 BRZ Limited, 93 Z28
Location: Orlando
Posts: 1,202
Thanks: 264
Thanked 278 Times in 176 Posts
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
I think we just see 2 different, district but effective teaching methods. Every instructor will be a bit different in their methodology but the end goal is usually the same or similar.

I'm just glad I had 2+ years (consistant) of autocross experience before I started track days, made the transition quick and easy with little instruction other than learning lines.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by trevorovert View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbillclintong View Post
If you guys spot any riced frs/brz post them here just for laughs no hating please.
Isn't there already a thread like this? It's called aggressive wheels or summat...
C Street Build/Progress Questions about C Street Autocrossing?
Kido1986 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2013, 07:00 PM   #25
Kamran
Pepe Le Pew Wannabe
 
Kamran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Drives: FR-S
Location: WA
Posts: 146
Thanks: 10
Thanked 23 Times in 18 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave-ROR View Post
I agree in general, but not all tracks are as friendly for offs. I've been in tire walls before, it's not fun. I did learn a lot doing it though
I learned my most important lesson running with the fast group, running into the tire wall! That's when I understood there is more to the two warm up laps! Just getting the tires warm on the first session of the day is not enough, and you need to let the tire carcous soften up too, especially if they have more than one trackday on them. At PR in WA we have no run offs! We have concrete barriers, and the fastest lines are how close you wanna get to them!

I was running my stupid little car with all the 911's, building on gapping a 911 Turbo through the corners, when going through one of high speed corners, the car was getting sideway as usual, no biggy, except that the stupid TC decided to take back control (no option to turn off TC on the car, it's full time) and decided to counter my handling by flipping the car in a reverse slide!!! That's when the car spun in opposite direction going into the tire wall.

After that event, I spend the entire first session warming up all systems in the car or the motorcycle before I go full on!!

On the learning curve, I would "never" recommend any novice or experienced driver with a brand new car to head for the track! Trying to trail brake into a corner from 130mph is not the time to learn the car's dispositions!!! That's why there are Driver Skill Days, offered by all clubs including PCA at an affordable $75. That's where you explore and learn the capabilties of the car under various conditions.

Even though I've been around the race tracks long enough and know the track I visit intimately (racing cars, motorcycle, as well as bicycle all on the same track, and I'm familiar with every inch of it), my plan is to take my new FRS to a Skill Day before I venture out on the track.

I would also not recommend to deck your car out with all the track goodies, and full set up. I'd do it in steps. Going to a track with full suspension set up and aftermarket parts will change the composure of the car drastically, e.g. How the factories set up cars for safer under steer will fast change into oversteer if you are not accustomed to the various changes made to the handling.

So, don't be overzeleous, take it slow, modify in steps and gradually, make sure you understand the limits if every mod you made and make mental notes, see which direction gives more improvement, and most importantly, continue to learn no matter how advanced you think you are. Even Michael is still trying to learn...

Even when you are advanced, it's still a good idea to ride with other instructors and learn from their strengths. You may think they have nothing to teach, but even a slower instructor could open your eyes to something you were not aware of before if you keep your eyes open.
__________________
My middle age crisis started prematurely… at 16!

I'm also independently very, very..... dependent!

Last edited by Kamran; 01-07-2013 at 08:12 PM.
Kamran is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Kamran For This Useful Post:
amram (03-27-2014)
Old 02-27-2013, 10:45 PM   #26
Black Tire
Senior Member
 
Black Tire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: Whiteout Scion FR-S
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 506
Thanks: 367
Thanked 207 Times in 128 Posts
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
I've been known to turn the aids off without telling them from time to time if I feel comfortable
I'd like to see this since it take a "pedal dance" to completely shut things off in the FR-S!

Seriously though, I have a question:

What are you currently using for a harness in your FR-S. Are you using the stock belts? Do you lock the inertia reel, or just go loose?


I will be (hopefully) tracking my car later this spring, and am wondering what others have done. [I have been an instructor for the BMW club for many years.]


My $0.02: I have the student help decide whether or not to turn off the driver aids. I certainly try to convince them to turn them off if I feel their skill level has reached the point where it is holding them back. For myself, I can't stand driving on the track with them on [thanks again Mike for the pedal dance post]. I just finished instructing at our winter driving school on snow and I much preferred it after doing the pedal dance. On the street in the winter I leave all the driving aids on. The stability control saved me from spinning a couple of times this winter on icy highways/freeways.
__________________
My cars always dress formally. They all wear black tires.

Black Tire is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Black Tire For This Useful Post:
amram (03-27-2014)
Old 02-28-2013, 02:39 AM   #27
CSG Mike
 
CSG Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 12,618
Thanks: 7,783
Thanked 12,221 Times in 5,829 Posts
Mentioned: 860 Post(s)
Tagged: 13 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Tire View Post
I'd like to see this since it take a "pedal dance" to completely shut things off in the FR-S!

Seriously though, I have a question:

What are you currently using for a harness in your FR-S. Are you using the stock belts? Do you lock the inertia reel, or just go loose?


I will be (hopefully) tracking my car later this spring, and am wondering what others have done. [I have been an instructor for the BMW club for many years.]


My $0.02: I have the student help decide whether or not to turn off the driver aids. I certainly try to convince them to turn them off if I feel their skill level has reached the point where it is holding them back. For myself, I can't stand driving on the track with them on [thanks again Mike for the pedal dance post]. I just finished instructing at our winter driving school on snow and I much preferred it after doing the pedal dance. On the street in the winter I leave all the driving aids on. The stability control saved me from spinning a couple of times this winter on icy highways/freeways.
100% stock interior. The OEM seats are spectacular in this car, and will hold you in place rather well. I personally would never recommend a harness and harness bar with OEM seats.
CSG Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CSG Mike For This Useful Post:
Anthonytpt (05-22-2013)
Old 05-22-2013, 04:08 PM   #28
Anthonytpt
Senior Member
 
Anthonytpt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Drives: '13 Argento 6MT FR-S
Location: Laguna Hills, CA
Posts: 430
Thanks: 1,698
Thanked 149 Times in 91 Posts
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
This is an excellent thread. I am glad I happened upon it today.
__________________
Anthonytpt is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FS: NRG Quick Releases, Hub, Quick Lock, Steering wheel Pekingduck Interior Parts (Incl. Lighting) 7 02-12-2014 06:59 PM
prepping for winter Celica00 Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 24 09-27-2012 08:17 AM
Prepping for rear spoiler install? zooki Cosmetic Modification (Interior/Exterior/Lighting) 2 09-02-2012 03:56 PM
FR-S quick reference and warranty / maintenance guide is up pkny Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 15 06-20-2012 11:33 PM
Clean & Dirty trueno86power Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions 1 02-07-2012 01:54 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.