Learning to use paddles better than an automatic

[Johnny Horsepower]

I bought an auto FR-S and I'm trying out the manual shift features. Obviously I can use the stick and paddles well enough to get myself from point A to point B, but I want to learn how to do it well, better than automatic mode if possible. As I have very limited experience with shifting (drove a stick just once, many years ago), I have a potpourri of questions.

1. Is it realistic that I could learn to shift better in manual mode than the automatic transmission would do on its own? What does "better" mean? (Yes, I'm asking a question about my question.) What does the automatic get wrong? The only thing I can think of is that it can't look ahead. Like if you're at the point where you would normally be upshifting but you're about to begin slowing down for a stop sign, you could avoid two unneeded shifts in manual mode.

2. What is the advantage of higher revs when you're not trying to accelerate? Like when tootling through town in sport mode vs normal, the revs seem too high in sport mode. Is that just so in case you suddenly need to accelerate, you don't need to downshift first? Seems a little wasteful if that's all it is. Should I keep the revs lower when tootling in manual mode, if I'm prepared to downshift when needed?

3. I hear people saying they love how when you're in D, the paddle shifters still work so you have downshifts at your fingertips. But even without paddle shifters, wouldn't you still have downshifts at your fingertips (well, at your foot) in D? I mean if you hit the gas, doesn't the automatic downshift? Seems like a pretty easy thing for it to figure out.

4. Say I turn onto a 45 mph road, accelerate, and reach 50 mph in 3rd gear. I'm done accelerating, so what now? Do I upshift 3 times as quickly as possible, to 6th gear? Do I upshift 3 times but pause for a bit in each gear? What does the automatic do (why is there no gear indicator in D)? Would you skip 2 gears in a manual?

5. If you want to accelerate faster than you did last time, you can give it more gas and/or hold lower gears longer. And those need to be coordinated somewhat, right? Like you wouldn't use super light throttle to slowly get to the redline in 1st gear. Nor would you get up to 6th gear at 35 mph and then floor it. But how do you find the precise balance, the perfect combination of throttle and revs? How would I know that I should have, say, given it 10% more throttle but upshifted 300 rpms sooner? Come to think of it, why is there no throttle indicator so you have some objective measure of how much gas you're giving it?

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by Johnny Horsepower

I bought an auto FR-S and I'm trying out the manual shift features. ..

Hello Johnny Horsepower and welcome to our forum -

YIKES! what a first post -

Since I don't have an auto, I won't be able to address any of your questions -

However, I'm sure others will be along with some insight.

You may have to sift out several smart ass posts, to get to some decent information -


humfrz

[FRSBRZGT86FAN]

Originally Posted by humfrz

Hello Johnny Horsepower and welcome to our forum -

YIKES! what a first post -

Since I don't have an auto, I won't be able to address any of your questions -

However, I'm sure others will be along with some insight.

You may have to sift out several smart ass posts, to get to some decent information -


humfrz

Originally Posted by Johnny Horsepower

I bought an auto FR-S and I'm trying out the manual shift features. Obviously I can use the stick and paddles well enough to get myself from point A to point B, but I want to learn how to do it well, better than automatic mode if possible. As I have very limited experience with shifting (drove a stick just once, many years ago), I have a potpourri of questions.

1. Is it realistic that I could learn to shift better in manual mode than the automatic transmission would do on its own? What does "better" mean? (Yes, I'm asking a question about my question.) What does the automatic get wrong? The only thing I can think of is that it can't look ahead. Like if you're at the point where you would normally be upshifting but you're about to begin slowing down for a stop sign, you could avoid two unneeded shifts in manual mode.

2. What is the advantage of higher revs when you're not trying to accelerate? Like when tootling through town in sport mode vs normal, the revs seem too high in sport mode. Is that just so in case you suddenly need to accelerate, you don't need to downshift first? Seems a little wasteful if that's all it is. Should I keep the revs lower when tootling in manual mode, if I'm prepared to downshift when needed?

3. I hear people saying they love how when you're in D, the paddle shifters still work so you have downshifts at your fingertips. But even without paddle shifters, wouldn't you still have downshifts at your fingertips (well, at your foot) in D? I mean if you hit the gas, doesn't the automatic downshift? Seems like a pretty easy thing for it to figure out.

4. Say I turn onto a 45 mph road, accelerate, and reach 50 mph in 3rd gear. I'm done accelerating, so what now? Do I upshift 3 times as quickly as possible, to 6th gear? Do I upshift 3 times but pause for a bit in each gear? What does the automatic do (why is there no gear indicator in D)? Would you skip 2 gears in a manual?

5. If you want to accelerate faster than you did last time, you can give it more gas and/or hold lower gears longer. And those need to be coordinated somewhat, right? Like you wouldn't use super light throttle to slowly get to the redline in 1st gear. Nor would you get up to 6th gear at 35 mph and then floor it. But how do you find the precise balance, the perfect combination of throttle and revs? How would I know that I should have, say, given it 10% more throttle but upshifted 300 rpms sooner? Come to think of it, why is there no throttle indicator so you have some objective measure of how much gas you're giving it?

Dude, don't waste you're time trying to play with the stick keep your hand at 9 and 3 and use the paddles and keep it in manual mode when you want to play with it. The computer sorts pretty much everything out so you don't need to worry about anything but I'll answer your questions anyway. You may be misinterpreting the purpose of manual mode, and you are totally over thinking the car


1. Is it realistic that I could learn to shift better in manual mode than the automatic transmission would do on its own? What does "better" mean? (Yes, I'm asking a question about my question.) What does the automatic get wrong? The only thing I can think of is that it can't look ahead. Like if you're at the point where you would normally be upshifting but you're about to begin slowing down for a stop sign, you could avoid two unneeded shifts in manual mode.



The automatic doesn't downshift like it does in manual and keep it in the powerband, even in sport mode it's not downshifting aggressively and utilizing engine braking like a manual would. It's only useful for non-economy driving, like driving through a curvy backroad etc. Or forcing it to stay in 2nd or 3 while drifting in a parking lot irresponsibly . You won't be avoiding un-needed shifts it's the most efficient to just keep it in auto and let it do it's thing when you aren't driving hard like the scenario you provided. The only advantage would be engine braking at a stop and just pulling the paddles while your still in auto to assist before hand. If you've driven a manual car before it'd be easier for this to be understood


2. What is the advantage of higher revs when you're not trying to accelerate? Like when tootling through town in sport mode vs normal, the revs seem too high in sport mode. Is that just so in case you suddenly need to accelerate, you don't need to downshift first? Seems a little wasteful if that's all it is. Should I keep the revs lower when tootling in manual mode, if I'm prepared to downshift when needed?

None if you're "tooting around town in sport mode". Seems pretty dumb to keep it in sport mode or manual mode if your just driving around time. If you're like me and have a header and axleback you're just being a **** holding the revs high and downshift and getting cracks and pops all over the place scaring people. Buy a manual if you want to be that involved...


3. I hear people saying they love how when you're in D, the paddle shifters still work so you have downshifts at your fingertips. But even without paddle shifters, wouldn't you still have downshifts at your fingertips (well, at your foot) in D? I mean if you hit the gas, doesn't the automatic downshift? Seems like a pretty easy thing for it to figure out.


Not as fast as the paddles, also it's really useful to grab down a gear to get engine braking for some situations or force it to a higher gear during a cool down session at auto x. You'll figure this out when you understand cars a bit better.


4. Say I turn onto a 45 mph road, accelerate, and reach 50 mph in 3rd gear. I'm done accelerating, so what now? Do I upshift 3 times as quickly as possible, to 6th gear? Do I upshift 3 times but pause for a bit in each gear? What does the automatic do (why is there no gear indicator in D)? Would you skip 2 gears in a manual?


The hell are you trying to do? I'll answer all these questions systematically
a. You're done accelerating why are you in manual mode in the first place? Just a straight goddamn line? Is there a corner coming up? Are you on a highway?
b.totally confusing me, you're pretending to drive a manual so you put it into it's highest gear? Keep it in auto mode for that'
c.d. Do not pause between gears on the auto it confuses the tcm and you get rougher slower shifts, there is a gear indicator in drive only when you hit the paddles you knob. Why else would you need to know what gear its in
e. If I were driving a manual accelerating to 50 then holding it there I'd just leave it in 5th or 6th and let it cruise there all day saving gas.


5. If you want to accelerate faster than you did last time, you can give it more gas and/or hold lower gears longer. And those need to be coordinated somewhat, right? Like you wouldn't use super light throttle to slowly get to the redline in 1st gear. Nor would you get up to 6th gear at 35 mph and then floor it. But how do you find the precise balance, the perfect combination of throttle and revs? How would I know that I should have, say, given it 10% more throttle but upshifted 300 rpms sooner? Come to think of it, why is there no throttle indicator so you have some objective measure of how much gas you're giving it?

If your trying to launch it from a dead stop, manual mode, first gear, then just floor it, this isn't even a launch car anyway which is dumb to do in the first place. Grab the next gear as you reach redline, very little coordination. The auto stock launches very soft and weak as its stall converter rpm and gearing isn't suited for a dead launch, the manual is much better at that with a clutch dump. You can try modulating the throttle but it won't really assist much from a dead throttle the tires won't really lose grip on the stock auto from a launch unless your "brake boosting" it. You can set up the shift beep and light to tell you when to shift if you want, because I don't think you've driven many sports cars or know how a manual works


The only way for a to make a stock auto as fast as a manual frs would be getting a 4.67-4.88 final drive or higher, otherwise the auto maybe more of a momentum car than a manual in that respect

[humfrz]

WOW - good job! -


humfrz

[Impureclient]

FRSBRZGT86FAN pretty much has it covered there.

Simple version though:
Driving in full auto = better MPG
Driving in manual shift auto = more fun/control and slightly quicker

[NWFRS]

I just leave it in auto and then bump it down using the left paddle for on-ramps, freeway passing, annoying little hills, etc. It's a great compromise for a commuter car. In normal daily driving I find the auto to be smooth and relaxing. In "manual mode" I personally felt as if it was the worst of both worlds for normal city driving. The paddles are on the wheel after all. In mid-corners they're never where I left them.

[VTEC]

1. Is it realistic that I could learn to shift better in manual mode than the automatic transmission would do on its own? What does "better" mean? (Yes, I'm asking a question about my question.) What does the automatic get wrong? The only thing I can think of is that it can't look ahead. Like if you're at the point where you would normally be upshifting but you're about to begin slowing down for a stop sign, you could avoid two unneeded shifts in manual mode.

Yes the biggest advantage is that you always know what you're doing next. An automatic can't read your mind. It doesn't know you're slowing down for a stop sign so it won't downshift and give you engine braking. It doesn't know when you're about to accelerate for a lane change or power out of a tight turn.

2. What is the advantage of higher revs when you're not trying to accelerate? Like when tootling through town in sport mode vs normal, the revs seem too high in sport mode. Is that just so in case you suddenly need to accelerate, you don't need to downshift first? Seems a little wasteful if that's all it is. Should I keep the revs lower when tootling in manual mode, if I'm prepared to downshift when needed?

If you're accelerating slowly upshift at low RPMs to save gas. If you suddenly need to accelerate, downshift as many gears as necessary.

3. I hear people saying they love how when you're in D, the paddle shifters still work so you have downshifts at your fingertips. But even without paddle shifters, wouldn't you still have downshifts at your fingertips (well, at your foot) in D? I mean if you hit the gas, doesn't the automatic downshift? Seems like a pretty easy thing for it to figure out.

Yes this a true but there is still a delay from when you first floor the gas pedal to when the car actually shifts. If you are in manual mode and you know you are about to punch it, you can put the car into its powerband before you punch it. The throttle response is instant. This can pretty useful when you're making lane changes and the gap is a bit tighter.

4. Say I turn onto a 45 mph road, accelerate, and reach 50 mph in 3rd gear. I'm done accelerating, so what now? Do I upshift 3 times as quickly as possible, to 6th gear? Do I upshift 3 times but pause for a bit in each gear? What does the automatic do (why is there no gear indicator in D)? Would you skip 2 gears in a manual?

Yup when I'm done accelerating I put it back into 6th asap for fuel economy. No need to pause in each gear

5. If you want to accelerate faster than you did last time, you can give it more gas and/or hold lower gears longer. And those need to be coordinated somewhat, right? Like you wouldn't use super light throttle to slowly get to the redline in 1st gear. Nor would you get up to 6th gear at 35 mph and then floor it. But how do you find the precise balance, the perfect combination of throttle and revs? How would I know that I should have, say, given it 10% more throttle but upshifted 300 rpms sooner? Come to think of it, why is there no throttle indicator so you have some objective measure of how much gas you're giving it?

This more or less true. But there is no precise balance, it is whatever you need. For example sometimes I find full throttle in 3rd gear at around 4000 RPM is just enough for me to make a pass in city traffic. If you floor it in an auto it would give you 2nd gear and be too fast. If you do half throttle the auto will probably put you in 4th and be too slow. Maybe 75% throttle in 2nd gear would work too but at 75% throttle, the auto may only give you 3rd gear. Manual means you can choose exactly whatever combo you want. But there would really be no reason for the extremes cases, like 5% throttle in 1st gear up to redline or full throttle in 6th gear at 1500 rpm.

TLDR;
The main advantage as I said earlier is you can always plan ahead, where as the automatic can't read your mind. You can downshift aggressively to high RPMs and then shift back up to 6th for fuel economy whenever you want. You can also choose anything in between. Manual mode pretty much lets you pick anywhere you want to be in the powerband right away. An auto will kind of try to do the same depending on pedal precision, but it will not be as fast or precise as manual mode or a manual transmission.

[bcj]

In auto the controller will usually coast when you let off the gas until you call for acceleration again, then figure out what gear is most appropriate.
You'll need to hit the brakes if you want to slow down.

In "manual" you can use engine braking to scrub off speed without putting more, or any heat into the disks, saving them for even more deceleration later.

When you have a known section of road or track, you can decide which single gear you want for that bit of it.
Use the engine to modulate accel or decel to match the corner conditions.

The auto would want to flip up a gear or two when you let off the gas.

[PetrolioBenzina]

I actually miss my AT '13. Ignore any "driver involvement" remarks.

[finch1750]

Originally Posted by Johnny Horsepower

I bought an auto FR-S and I'm trying out the manual shift features. Obviously I can use the stick and paddles well enough to get myself from point A to point B, but I want to learn how to do it well, better than automatic mode if possible. As I have very limited experience with shifting (drove a stick just once, many years ago), I have a potpourri of questions.

1. Is it realistic that I could learn to shift better in manual mode than the automatic transmission would do on its own? What does "better" mean? (Yes, I'm asking a question about my question.) What does the automatic get wrong? The only thing I can think of is that it can't look ahead. Like if you're at the point where you would normally be upshifting but you're about to begin slowing down for a stop sign, you could avoid two unneeded shifts in manual mode.

What you described is accurate, you can anticipate what is coming better then the car because you can see. Now there is no issue with the car making an extra upshift as your about to stop really since it takes no effort and doesn't hurt anything. The only real advantage would be under performance driving conditions or when expecting to pass another car or something

2. What is the advantage of higher revs when you're not trying to accelerate? Like when tootling through town in sport mode vs normal, the revs seem too high in sport mode. Is that just so in case you suddenly need to accelerate, you don't need to downshift first? Seems a little wasteful if that's all it is. Should I keep the revs lower when tootling in manual mode, if I'm prepared to downshift when needed?

Being higher in the rev range allows for better accel. No real reason to do this unless going to pass somebody or something. Trying to accelerate in a higher gear/low RPM buts a ton of load on the car and isn't good for the engine. Higher revs just to drive down the street just burns extra fuel.

3. I hear people saying they love how when you're in D, the paddle shifters still work so you have downshifts at your fingertips. But even without paddle shifters, wouldn't you still have downshifts at your fingertips (well, at your foot) in D? I mean if you hit the gas, doesn't the automatic downshift? Seems like a pretty easy thing for it to figure out.

Hitting the gas gets a much delayed response. It also may shift you down 1 gear when you want 2 gears or 2 gears when you only needed 1. Paddles give more control for this scenario.

4. Say I turn onto a 45 mph road, accelerate, and reach 50 mph in 3rd gear. I'm done accelerating, so what now? Do I upshift 3 times as quickly as possible, to 6th gear? Do I upshift 3 times but pause for a bit in each gear? What does the automatic do (why is there no gear indicator in D)? Would you skip 2 gears in a manual?

You shift to the gear that is appropriate. This will come with time. I have skipped gears in MT cars before when pulling away and then cruising at that speed for a while. But that is not always going to be what is needed. If you double tap the paddles up or down it will skip gears. Triple taps kinda work but I think it stops at a gear in between most of the time because we physically cant hit the paddles fast enough.


5. If you want to accelerate faster than you did last time, you can give it more gas and/or hold lower gears longer. And those need to be coordinated somewhat, right? Like you wouldn't use super light throttle to slowly get to the redline in 1st gear. Nor would you get up to 6th gear at 35 mph and then floor it. But how do you find the precise balance, the perfect combination of throttle and revs? How would I know that I should have, say, given it 10% more throttle but upshifted 300 rpms sooner? Come to think of it, why is there no throttle indicator so you have some objective measure of how much gas you're giving it?

You learn by feel. Try different amounts of throttle at different RPM. It should be apparent very quickly if the car responds how you want it to. Just avoid lots of throttle in high gear/low RPM as it is too much load on the engine (ie don't floor it in 5th or 6th at 2.5k RPM

Answer in bold above. A lot of this will just be driving the car and figuring it out through trial and error. Don't fixate on exact numbers like X% throttle or you need to be in this exact RPM range.

Glad you joined the forum and hope you enjoy learning to drive the car more.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by PetrolioBenzina

I actually miss my AT '13. Ignore any "driver involvement" remarks.

Ignore any driver involvement remarks? Hahaha. So pushing buttons is just as involved as deciding what gear to downshift to at a given speed and then pushing a clutch, blipping the throttle, shifting a gear, letting a clutch out? Keep telling yourself that.

[FRSBRZGT86FAN]

Originally Posted by ermax

Ignore any driver involvement remarks? Hahaha. So pushing buttons is just as involved as deciding what gear to downshift to at a given speed and then pushing a clutch, blipping the throttle, shifting a gear, letting a clutch out? Keep telling yourself that.

There's always one of you

[HKz]

Originally Posted by FRSBRZGT86FAN

There's always one of you

technically one of "you" guys started it

[shiumai]

Originally Posted by ermax

So pushing buttons is just as involved as deciding what gear to downshift to at a given speed and then pushing a clutch, blipping the throttle, shifting a gear, letting a clutch out? Keep telling yourself that.

Well - in some cases. Obviously not in ours.