2020 Toyota GR Supra Revealed!

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by userjack6880

While I can't find evidence of a car NOBODY bought (just weak sales), there have been models of things that existed for one year, for various reasons. Mostly can think of two trucks and a hatchback. H3T, Blackwood, and the G3. Granted, two of those models were killed off not because of sales, but because their brands got axed. The Lincoln Blackwood just made no sense.

There are unconfirmed rumours that of the 4 years that the Aztec were produced they ended up crushing more vehicles than they sold.

[userjack6880]

I mean, you also have the EV-1, which I believe nobody actually bought. Just paid to use for a little while before GM decided nobody should have one.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

There are unconfirmed rumours that of the 4 years that the Aztec were produced they ended up crushing more vehicles than they sold.

You mean to say, someone at GM had a conscious

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

You mean to say, someone at GM had a conscious

Not really. With the penalties they would have had to pay to all of the parts suppliers for cancelling their orders it was just cheaper to build and scrap them than it was not build them. The industry is weird that way.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by userjack6880

I mean, you also have the EV-1, which I believe nobody actually bought. Just paid to use for a little while before GM decided nobody should have one.

They were a lease only vehicle though so they don't count. The whole car was more an experiment than an actual long term proposition.

[AnalogMan]

Originally Posted by nextcar

Perhaps... but then again, what exactly does Toyota lose by cannibalizing the low end of the Supra? It seems like the real loser would be BMW, since they bear the brunt of both manufacturing and engineering for the Supra.

IMHO Toyota doesn't really care if BMW recoups its costs or not, and in this type of arrangement there is typically not a lot of profit for the company that rebrands another company's product in the low end cars anyway. BMW is not selling this car to Toyota at cost...

If the next generation truly is based on Toyota's TNA then they might actually make more money on a highly optioned GR86 than a base Supra.

Pure speculation on my part...

I have no idea what Toyota's profit margins are on the Supra and 86, but I would bet they're significantly higher on a $50,000 car than a $30,000 one. Even if the profit percentages are similar for both (since they're each bought from someone else, BMW and Subaru respectively), there's an element of the fixed cost to build the car. Such as, it might cost $20,000 to build a $30,000 car, and perhaps $30,000 to build a $50,000 car. So from a purely financial perspective, they probably make a lot more on each Supra sold than an 86.

So, just like Porsche with the 911 and Cayman, Toyota won't want to risk losing a Supra sale to an 86 if buyers see them as too close. Toyota is a completely financially driven company, and will always do whatever makes them the most money.

As an aside, way back in 1990 I interviewed for a job in new product planning with Toyota (in California). Everyone I met with proudly pointed out to me that they were not car enthusiasts, they were strictly business people. They told me about the decision-making process, how there was a 'right way', a 'wrong way', and the 'Toyota way' of doing things, and everyone there must always do things the Toyota way, which meant strictly according to objective financial metrics.

I didn't get the job. The reason they gave me was they were concerned that I was 'too much of a gear head', and that I would let passion and emotion get in the way of making strictly financially-based decisions the Toyota way. Imagine that, a car company not wanting to hire someone because they liked cars too much.

This approach clearly works for Toyota, as they are the largest and arguably most successful car company in the world. But it doesn't always result in the kind of cars enthusiasts want.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

I have no idea what Toyota's profit margins are on the Supra and 86, but I would bet they're significantly higher on a $50,000 car than a $30,000 one. Even if the profit percentages are similar for both (since they're each bought from someone else, BMW and Subaru respectively), there's an element of the fixed cost to build the car. Such as, it might cost $20,000 to build a $30,000 car, and perhaps $30,000 to build a $50,000 car. So from a purely financial perspective, they probably make a lot more on each Supra sold than an 86.

So, just like Porsche with the 911 and Cayman, Toyota won't want to risk losing a Supra sale to an 86 if buyers see them as too close. Toyota is a completely financially driven company, and will always do whatever makes them the most money.

As an aside, way back in 1990 I interviewed for a job in new product planning with Toyota (in California). Everyone I met with proudly pointed out to me that they were not car enthusiasts, they were strictly business people. They told me about the decision-making process, how there was a 'right way', a 'wrong way', and the 'Toyota way' of doing things, and everyone there must always do things the Toyota way, which meant strictly according to objective financial metrics.

I didn't get the job. The reason they gave me was they were concerned that I was 'too much of a gear head', and that I would let passion and emotion get in the way of making strictly financially-based decisions the Toyota way. Imagine that, a car company not wanting to hire someone because they liked cars too much.

This approach clearly works for Toyota, as they are the largest and arguably most successful car company in the world. But it doesn't always result in the kind of cars enthusiasts want.

The average profit margin on new cars is 1-2% regardless of sale price. The companies make so much money through volume not margin.
I doubt that either of these models even make the 1% mark. They are not intended to be profit makers. Never were. Their value is in the attention they bring to the brand.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

They were a lease only vehicle though so they don't count. The whole car was more an experiment than an actual long term proposition.

Here is a shell for sale. Wonder how many survived?

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?f...tofT1YaqHf-LWU

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Here is a shell for sale. Wonder how many survived?

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?f...tofT1YaqHf-LWU

I know there was one said to be in a garage in Atlanta someplace. Saw it in a Youtube about abandoned tech at some point.

Edit: That was easy https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vid...parking-garage

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Sapphireho

I got an email from Toyota trying to sell me one.

I got the same one.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I know there was one said to be in a garage in Atlanta someplace. Saw it in a Youtube about abandoned tech at some point.

Edit: That was easy https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vid...parking-garage

some of the articles on that say it's at the university parking garage. a bunch of the ev1's were donated to universities for further education, to be scrapped once the universities were done with them though.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by soundman98

some of the articles on that say it's at the university parking garage. a bunch of the ev1's were donated to universities for further education, to be scrapped once the universities were done with them though.

Ya it said 40 in that one. Bet there are at least a couple more hidden away. It also said that the batteries and motors had been stripped out of all of them so not sure what value they even had for the schools.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Ya it said 40 in that one. Bet there are at least a couple more hidden away. It also said that the batteries and motors had been stripped out of all of them so not sure what value they even had for the schools.

i vaguely recall that as well. but even with the batteries and motors, almost none of the tech is applicable in any scenario. the only way it makes sense is that it was done for a tax write-off.

[abraxis]

Originally Posted by KR-S 86

Somewhat agree, but mostly disagree here.

If there is a silver lining to this, it's that Toyota is now producing MKIV Supra parts again, which can only be a good thing. Even the TRD bodykit for that car was brought back.

However, the difference between the Supra and the 86 is that the latter was made as a standalone car despite its roots. If this were a standalone car, there probably would not have been as much outrage. @Dadhawk put it best - the Supra name carries too much weight and should have been reserved for a car Toyota made themselves, and if that meant no Supra, so be it.

I would even go as far as to say that the 86 is far more of a Toyota than the Supra (what part of the Supra, besides exterior, badging, and possibly suspension, is actually from Toyota, and why would Subaru sell a car that is RWD?). The point here is that the car that received the Supra nameplate is nothing more than a rebadged BMW with suspension tweaks, which gives off the impression that Toyota made little to no effort in bringing back the Supra.

I will say this - I have no opinion of the actual car itself, as I have never driven one. I don't feel I should be as quick to judge the car because of the nameplate it carries. Contrary to what most people think a Supra should be, it's not supposed to be a high-horsepower dyno breaking monster - it's supposed to be a GT car that drives really well and can go against the best of them in its class. This car performs just as well if not better than its predecessors - and even then, like the MKIV before it, is still capable of high horsepower (albeit not as high, but high enough).

This car has its place - it's just that Toyota deserves little, if any, credit for bringing this car to their lineup.

This has to be one of the worst takes I've ever read on this forum. It's like you decided to compare apples to apples and decided to call one an orange.

1-How is the 86 a 'standalone' car and the Supra isn't? Makes no sense at all. based on your flawed logic, neither car is a standalone car if anything.

2-Neither the 86 or Supra would exist unless Toyota decided they wanted to develop and produce either. Subaru hated the idea of the 86 and fought it tooth and nail. BMW killed the Z4 and had no plans to bring it back cuz it was a money loser. BMW approached Toyota about the idea of a joint project, not the other way around, and Toyota decided what marque they wanted to build. Let's see, BMW has the best history of producing inline-6s, I wonder what we should make?? Duh...

3-Toyota developed the idea of a lighter weight tail happy RWD coupe with low CoG for the 86, not Subaru. Toyota once again came up with a boosted I-6 that would overachieve in straight lines for the money and also on the track with a super stiff chassis equal to the LFA and hardpoints dictated by their golden handling ratio. That's Toyota development, not BMW. Their M cars don't follow any of these philosophies. Even BMW admitted they don't make 'sports cars'. They make pedestrian looking GT coupes and sedans tweaked to go faster than others that do the same thing.

4-Neither the Z4 or Supra are 'made' by BMW. They are made in Austria by Magna. As for BMW logo'd parts, well, do you want to be able to afford a Supra or don't you? Really simple math. I find it ironic the same people who complain about the more upscale BMW'ish interior are more usually the same people who would complain about a 'cheaper' feeling Toyota interior and dump all over it. No win scenario. Gee, which would you rather have in a $50k sportscar that you would want to drive across the country? Haters gonna hate and Toyota should really ignore them.

5-So you say you want a pure Japanese Supra? The Supra represents the pinnacle or 'flagship' of the Toyota brand? Go buy an LC, LFA or the Le Mans GR for 3x's to 20x's the price of a basic Supra and put a 'Supra' sticker on it. Guess what. Not one of the so called Supra 'purists' has the money or intent of doing just that. It's all hot-air.

So all the haters feel free to drop a deposit on a real Toyota 'flagship' and refi your house, if you even own one, and leave the rest of us that appreciate what Toyota is trying to make accessible to the car enthusiast community. Or just buy one of those unicorn '$60k' C8 corvettes that will actually cost you $80k-$85k and go be happy so the rest of us can stop hearing all the repetitive nonsense.

Or just wait 5-7 years so you can have your 'standalone' purist Supra with a Mazda inline-6 instead. The one that will prob have an RX-9 badge on it. Go start that thread and get a head start on all the hate!

If you think no Supra at all is better than having this Supra, we have nothing to say to each other. That's just absurd. You should prob take down that Fast and Furious poster and disassemble your shrine to Paul Walker and move on from high school.