BRZ comes last in EVO group test

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by JPFr-s

Terrible review.. Automatic BRZ against a bunch of manuals? I'd rather drive a manual Corolla than an Auto BRZ/FR-S....

Really? Wow.

I agree that they should be doing like for like in the review, but that seems a bit over the top. Having owned both a manual Corolla and an Auto FR-S, I can say, with no hesitation, that the Auto FR-S is a far superior car in every way, except rear leg room and trunk space.

Your opinion may (and obviously does) vary.

[WolfpackS2k]

If by long run you mean economy of scale, then maybe, but I'll take this conversation without the condescension, thank you.

Sorry 86'd, no disrespect meant. Just a strong disagreement

While I agree that Subaru "could" charge close to $40k for a say, 300hp FI model, I would say that it will hurt their sales. I suppose you could say it all comes down to their profit models.

On the whole, I'm curious why there's some "unwritten law" in the world of automotive manufacturing that disallows anyone from selling an affordable lightweight RWD coupe that has a respectable power to weight ratio.

Mustang GT - too heavy
Camaro SS - WAY too heavy
Genesis 3.8 - too heavy
Challenger R/T - WAY way too heavy
Miata - underpowered
370Z - too expensive, a bit heavy, not track durable
Twins - underpowered

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

On the whole, I'm curious why there's some "unwritten law" in the world of automotive manufacturing that disallows anyone from selling an affordable lightweight RWD coupe that has a respectable power to weight ratio.

Mustang GT - too heavy
Camaro SS - WAY too heavy
Genesis 3.8 - too heavy
Challenger R/T - WAY way too heavy
Miata - underpowered
370Z - too expensive, a bit heavy, not track durable
Twins - underpowered

Probably for the same reason Porsche won't put powerful engines into the Boxster / Cayman-- it could destroy the market for their "higher end" offerings. Hell, I'm still convinced BMW gimped the 1M to keep it from outshining the M3, and that was a super limited-production car that would never really get a chance to cannibalize the M3 market anyway.

[Wonderbar]

It's kinda the same concept that Mitsubishi had toward the last gen eclipse, before they murdered it entirely.

They wouldn't give us awd or turbo due to a very openly stated love for the evo.

I prefer aftermarket to OEM, it's almost always cheaper, usually better and it's my choice.

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

On the whole, I'm curious why there's some "unwritten law" in the world of automotive manufacturing that disallows anyone from selling an affordable lightweight RWD coupe that has a respectable power to weight ratio.

Mustang GT - too heavy
Camaro SS - WAY too heavy
Genesis 3.8 - too heavy
Challenger R/T - WAY way too heavy
Miata - underpowered
370Z - too expensive, a bit heavy, not track durable
Twins - underpowered

1. RWD has inherent disadvantages vs FWD when it comes to practical daily drivers (less cabin/cargo space, more drivetrain loss, more weight). This hurts mainstream appeal and reduces demand, relegating most RWD cars to niche markets, especially small RWD cars.
2. It costs more to design/produce a lightweight, RWD car (partly due to layout and partly due to economies of scale).
3. More power means more chassis reinforcements, bigger brakes, and either more displacement, forced induction, more precise tolerances/tuning, or a hand-built engine. All of those add cost and/or weight.

When it comes to RWD cars: cheap, lightweight, powerful... choose two.

[WolfpackS2k]

^I know all that, but that's still crap IMO! Also, the complete lack of a car in that segment means the first manufacturer to fill it will be quite successful. Could you imagine the demand for the BRZ/FRS if instead of a 200 hp engine it had 250-275 hp? It would probably win "car of the decade" and be an instant classic.

Originally Posted by Wonderbar

It's kinda the same concept that Mitsubishi had toward the last gen eclipse, before they murdered it entirely.

They wouldn't give us awd or turbo due to a very openly stated love for the evo.

I prefer aftermarket to OEM, it's almost always cheaper, usually better and it's my choice.

So you don't mind voiding warranties and having to do guesswork instead of it being close to perfect out of the box? (a la a Porsche). Nevermind maintenance and vehicle resale.

[JPFr-s]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Really? Wow.

I agree that they should be doing like for like in the review, but that seems a bit over the top. Haven owned both a manual Corolla and an Auto FR-S, I can say, with no hesitation, that the Auto FR-S is a far superior car in every way, except rear leg room and trunk space.

Your opinion may (and obviously does) vary.

Well yeah.. Over the top of course. I would never drive a Corolla. Just trying to state how much I prefer a manual in a sports car. If I was missing my left leg and didn't have a prosthetic, I would use a damn stick for the clutch. I can't get the enjoyment out of an automatic that I can with a manual, and if I was given those cars(equipped the same) to review, the FR-S AUTO would more than likely come in dead last any day.

[86'd]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Sorry 86'd, no disrespect meant. Just a strong disagreement

While I agree that Subaru "could" charge close to $40k for a say, 300hp FI model, I would say that it will hurt their sales. I suppose you could say it all comes down to their profit models.

On the whole, I'm curious why there's some "unwritten law" in the world of automotive manufacturing that disallows anyone from selling an affordable lightweight RWD coupe that has a respectable power to weight ratio.

Mustang GT - too heavy
Camaro SS - WAY too heavy
Genesis 3.8 - too heavy
Challenger R/T - WAY way too heavy
Miata - underpowered
370Z - too expensive, a bit heavy, not track durable
Twins - underpowered

I also apologize if I was a bit testy.

Anyway I think the unwritten law is that Subaru could charge 40k and be "better" than the Cayman performance wise (to the other poster that quoted me) as there would be no other cars in this bracket. (and again) I wasn't really comparing the car by their level of refinement or interiors.

And like you hint at, there both is and isn't a market for a 40k RWD, lightweight car. The last car that really did this is the FD-RX7, and despite its obvious problems, it was an awesome car.

---

The argument, "why not lower weight" and "back-to-basics" applies just as much to a 40K version of this car, as it does to the 25K version; in part because a car like this hasn't been done yet (in these modern times).

Also (like Deslock says) I think when people pay over a certain amount of money 35k+ a majority wants luxury, other wise you're selling to only enthusiasts. The stock FRS/BRZ is nice because it's an everyman's sportscar.

A 40K BRZ would be, in my mind, a cross between a FD and Lotus Elise, but with a back seat, and/or maybe a backseat delete.

Add to the fact that if Subaru makes a limited STI BRZ that focuses solely on the enthusiast (like a WRX STI S206, with a carbon fiber roof, wing, recaro seats, brembo; which starts at $66k) it would be probably be closer to 50k, and that's perhaps being generous.

[WolfpackS2k]

I hear ya. It's just so frustrating! The heart of a car is its engine, and the BRZ's is weak. And its driving me nuts already, after just 4 months I take the engine to redline quite often in 1-3 gears and it leaves a lot to be desired, both in sound and power.

It's a dilemma and I'm not sure which route to take in the near future:
Upgrade to a used Cayman S, and worry about higher maintenance costs, or supercharge the BRZ, which tosses the powertrain warranty out the window and will hurt resale down the road.

Meh