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Old 03-23-2020, 02:34 PM   #15
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Soundman did a great job explaining everything. But there are 2 small things I would like to correct just for the sake of anyone reading this thread in the future.

1.) The idea that 'speakers only take what they need' is a bit backwards. They are driven, by an amp of some kind, and thus are open to being given more juice than they can handle. Past that, the breakdown of what this does to the coil, speaker, and so on is very good. Just don't make the mistake of treating this like an electrical circuit where ratings are based on a component's draw. Speaker circuits do not work like this. I have seen many people through my career make this mistake and end up thinking the speakers were trash, when in reality they were just pushing too much juice into them over and over. They will take whatever you throw at them until they fail and short.

2.) Under-powering is okay only as long as there is no clipping. Clipping can just as easily destroy a speaker's cone or coil, as it's essentially a direct DC current sustained over time. Speakers work off AC, and that's why they vibrate. The constant reversal of polarity is what makes it move back and forth. Since clipping scenarios essentially provide straight DC current to the speakers, they stop vibrating and are stuck in a fully extended position until the clipping event is done. If you at any point experience clipping, you are risking your speakers damaging themselves from this over-extension that they are not designed to hold. Turn the volume down when you get this, and look to upgrade your amplifier to prevent it from clipping at higher volumes.
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Old 03-23-2020, 02:47 PM   #16
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That's what I've read about the clipping and under powering speakers.

I think what soundamn was saying is that as long as the speakers are properly crossed over it's not as much of a risk. I suppose this help prevent 'clipping' along with properly adjusting the gain on your amp?
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Old 03-24-2020, 01:36 PM   #17
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That's what I've read about the clipping and under powering speakers.

I think what soundamn was saying is that as long as the speakers are properly crossed over it's not as much of a risk. I suppose this help prevent 'clipping' along with properly adjusting the gain on your amp?
Crossover really only deals with the filtering of frequencies that make it to your speaker. It's the core concept that keeps bass only going to your sub, and treble only going to your dash. It won't prevent clipping, as that happens way before the crossover. The square wave that occurs during clipping will still go through to your speakers. Crossovers in sub amps are actually somewhat effective in mitigating this due to the nature of the signal, but setups for regular speakers aren't quite the same in that regard.

Proper gain is a step in the right direction. The big reason to try and match your wattage of speakers to the amp is for a signal power that makes sense. High wattage speakers with a low wattage amp lends itself very easily to the user turning the amp up too high to get the power they want, and clipping occurs. Good speakers will always sound like they can take more, but the amp just can't provide it.

If you match low-to-low watts then yes, it will be right in the range you expect, but as Soundman succinctly put, the control is lacking and the sound will easily distort as they can't take as much pushing as high-wattage speakers. High-to-high watts solves all this, but is also the reason pricing on these goes up exponentially as you increase in wattage.

This is a very dumbed down version of all this, and is really starting to get into sound theory that many people, even sound engineers that work on tours and whatnot, don't always dive into. At the end of the day, you make a setup that works for what you want. When you want more out of it, or come across problems, there are always answers based on these principles. They just usually include more dollar signs.

Edit: A good read on all this can be found at http://www.prestonelectronics.com/audio/Speakers.htm
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Old 03-24-2020, 02:16 PM   #18
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This is a very dumbed down version of all this, and is really starting to get into sound theory that many people, even sound engineers that work on tours and whatnot, don't always dive into. At the end of the day, you make a setup that works for what you want. When you want more out of it, or come across problems, there are always answers based on these principles. They just usually include more dollar signs.

Edit: A good read on all this can be found at http://www.prestonelectronics.com/audio/Speakers.htm
Yeah bro, you gotta dumb it down for me. I would double thank your post if I could.
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:56 PM   #19
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Great article.
Henry Kloss wrote several books on how to produce clean audio in medium powered systems.
It was mostly based on understanding RLC circuits.
A simple example is
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Old 03-24-2020, 10:21 PM   #20
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Great article.
Henry Kloss wrote several books on how to produce clean audio in medium powered systems.
It was mostly based on understanding RLC circuits.
A simple example is
To me, the most impressive thing about Henry's design is it's simplicity. He accomplished a very clean sound without having to incorporate any flux capacitors. Keep it simple.
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Old 03-25-2020, 10:22 AM   #21
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Great article.
Henry Kloss wrote several books on how to produce clean audio in medium powered systems.
It was mostly based on understanding RLC circuits.
A simple example is
That's a pretty bizarre circuit, at least given my brief experiences with crossover design. I can't tell if you posted that sarcastically or not. It depicts a 2nd-order high-pass filter with an L-pad for the SB29 driver, and a 3rd-order lowpass with a Zobel for impedance smoothing and C3 paralleled with L3 as a notch filter to smooth response, perhaps, for the AnarchyTop driver. Where it gets really strange is that the 2nd-order low-pass network for the AnarchyBottom driver formed by L5 and C5 is in SERIES with the xo circuit for the AnarchyTop driver...resulting in what....some kind of esoteric 5th-order result?! For a low-pass filter for a woofer?!? I don't understand that at all. Don't recognize the RLC circuit paralleled to the source, either..?? If this schematic really did come from Henry Kloss, I'd sure love to learn more about what's going on here. Henry has forgotten more than I'll ever know about this stuff....that's a given. Just don't get this. Did I miss something?
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Old 03-25-2020, 10:41 AM   #22
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Just for fun... and thread drift... here's two pics of my current project. A three-way center channel speaker based upon a design by Joe D'Appolito. One pic shows the cabinet; if you look inside it closely, you can see one of two tuned ports extending from the back wall and an interior wall of the sealed subenclosure for the tweeter and midrange. The pair of woofers is housed in the main enclosure with two tuned ports. The other pic shows the XO boards for the midrange, tweeter, and pair of woofers respectively from left to right. I've attached the schematic, too, for anyone interested.

Edit... probably should have put this in the "What are you doing during COVID stay-at-home" thread. Apologies.
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Old 03-25-2020, 10:50 AM   #23
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It was a compliment to Henry, and also a tongue in cheek to say messing with a single component in a system seldom improves performance. Crossover design is almost an art.
I met Henry in the 70s and was in awe of his quick brain and very dry humor.
Few realize his many works.
Gained first fame with speaker development, AR1, KLH, Advent. Then Adapted Dolby to small tapes. Three gun projection TV. Made low power amps with amazing clarity. Produced highly selective FM receivers (still sought after today). And many more.
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Old 03-25-2020, 11:01 AM   #24
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No arguments at all regarding Henry's brilliance, accomplishments, and contributions. Would love to better understand the topology of that circuit, if you can shed any light on it.
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Old 03-25-2020, 11:41 AM   #25
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Anything relating to putting together a modest power, hi fidelity system is more than welcome. I'm sure anyone looking for this information in the future would be happy to find this as I am.

Any suggestion were to find dumbed down, but accurate, step by step information in regards to speaker and crossover selection and construction?

I've already gotten all my parts for the front speakers. I tried to make a mini enclosure for my 3" daytons in the dash using 1/4 HDF board (left over laminate flooring) and the packaging off a champion oil filter (cardboard tubes). Not enough clearance with the air duct in the way. So now it's just an adapter.

Playing with the idea of adding enclosures for 6.5" woofer or sub woofer with modest power in the rear side locations. Just to fill in the lowest frequencies that the 6 front speaker's are missing. Might be more work than I'll want to do, unless i get "inspired". lol
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Old 03-25-2020, 12:12 PM   #26
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Anything relating to putting together a modest power, hi fidelity system is more than welcome. I'm sure anyone looking for this information in the future would be happy to find this as I am.

Any suggestion were to find dumbed down, but accurate, step by step information in regards to speaker and crossover selection and construction?
The short answer is that, to get very good or better results, there's a lot to crossover and speaker design in general, and there's a finite amount of "dumbing down" possible. Fastidious designers make their own measurements of each individual driver's Thiele-Small parameters, calculate box volumes for best damping and desired low-frequency rolloff Q (in general, sealed enclosures will extend deeper and rolloff more gradually for a given driver, but a well tuned ported enclosure will rolloff much more steeply but the onset of rolloff may be a bit lower), calculate and design the front baffle in order to allow for the effects of the baffle step and diffraction, then using all of that information, begin work calculating and designing a crossover that takes ALL of those parameters into account, trying to incorporate specific rolloff slopes, notch filters, impedance smoothing circuits, phase adjustments, etc., for each individual driver so that the summed response of the integrated speaker system is smooth across the spectrum, phase- and time-aligned, without strange impedance peaks or dips at various frequencies that may provide difficulties to some amplifiers, etc.. there's a LOT to it.

Having said that, you can have a lot of fun and actually achieve listenable results (if your standards are commensurately realistic) using readily available published specs for common drivers, freeware crossover and box-design programs, and just diving in. I don't mean to sound discouraging... that's how I got my start almost thirty years ago... although without the software... did the comps long hand back then. After my first pair built and designed from scratch (still in use in my youngest son's house), I dug a bit deeper, learned more, built a few more systems, and in general just enjoyed myself. The only truly GREAT speakers I've built were based upon other people's designs, with only very slight tweaks in the fabrication of the enclosures and slight changes in crossover component selection based upon availability or lack thereof of various parts.

Having said all of THAT... try this..

https://www.parts-express.com/resources

..and just start clicking around the various articles. A lot of it is kind of geared towards selling their products; you can't blame them for that, and their customer support is excellent. There's a lot of good introductory information in those links, and you might enjoy reading through that stuff.

If you want to get a bit more serious, I HIGHLY recommend Vance ****ason's
"The Loudspeaker Cookbook."

EDIT: .. OK, the filter algorithms hate his name. His last name is RICHARDason only "RICHARD" is the nickname that rhymes with "Rick".... as in "Rickason" with a D.

The book is not what what the title sounds like.. it's not just a collection of "recipes" for specific speakers, but rather a great introduction to all of the various aspects of speaker design. When I bought my first copy twenty five years ago, it was kind of a hard slog to get through... if you're starting with zero or extremely limited knowledge of this stuff, you'll still be able to slowly work your way through it, but there's a lot to digest. He writes and explains it all about as clearly as anyone can, and I still refer to that book.

https://www.amazon.com/Loudspeaker-D...5152574&sr=8-1

It's quite expensive on Amazon now... not sure why. Maybe your local library can source a copy for you? It really is just about the best balancing act between over-the-top-technical and too-basic-to-be-useful that I've found.
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Old 03-25-2020, 12:50 PM   #27
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I'm just wondering how much of the home hi-fi stuff can be applied to car audio. Besides limitations in space and road noise, I dont see how it can be different. A speaker is a speaker regardless where you put it.

For speakers I've ordered exclusively from parts express. They have nice graphs and charts for every speaker. Makes me feel like I've made an informed choice after staring at the specs before buying even if I don't fully understand what I'm looking at.

If I'm super satisfied with the sound quality (I doubt it) of the 2 way components and the dayton 3" with a 800hz high pass, I might not look into it any further. I already have several sketches and designs for side or spare tire enclosure. "just in case" I decide to go that direction. lol I honestly like the way my car dives with more weight in the back anyhow.

They got a few used ones on sale of that book. Thanks for the recommendation!

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If you want to get a bit more serious, I HIGHLY recommend Vance ****ason's
"The Loudspeaker Cookbook."

EDIT: .. OK, the filter algorithms hate his name. His last name is RICHARDason only "RICHARD" is the nickname that rhymes with "Rick".... as in "Rickason" with a D.
peni5

edit: I mean PENI5 cough..
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Old 03-25-2020, 09:31 PM   #28
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I'm just wondering how much of the home hi-fi stuff can be applied to car audio. Besides limitations in space and road noise, I dont see how it can be different. A speaker is a speaker regardless where you put it.
it really comes down to the 'room'. overall, with home audio, the room acoustics are pretty straightforward and easily controllable, so the emphasis is more on enclosure and crossover design based on how everything interacts. designs tend to be more passive solutions due to the history of the hobby.

in car audio, the 'room' is a fixed but generally poor design, that cannot be significantly altered, and speaker enclosure design is difficult without a ton of work re-shaping door panels. the emphasis is more on the acoustics of the space and location of speakers than crossover or enclosure design. overall installs tend to be more electronic processing to make everything work within the environment.

speakers are speakers, but many parameters are still important. off-axis frequency response for starters is very important to understanding what it will actually sound like when installed in less-ideal positions.

i'm not an extreme 'number' kind of guy(i end up google-searching diymobileaudio every time for the specifics), but there's also multiple ways to use the t/s parameters to better understand how specific speakers will also handle not being in a tuned enclosure (very simply--part of enclosure design is to provide a specific amount of resistance against cone movement to alter it's response). certain speakers handle that better than others based on mechanical design.
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