follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Speed By Design
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Scion FR-S Forum | Subaru BRZ Forum | Toyota 86 GT 86 Forum | AS1 Forum - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Engine, Exhaust, Transmission

Engine, Exhaust, Transmission Discuss the FR-S | 86 | BRZ engine, exhaust and drivetrain.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-01-2014, 10:49 PM   #1
SirBrass
Trust me, I'm the Doctor
 
SirBrass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Drives: 2014 BRZ Limited (6MT)
Location: Fallbrook
Posts: 2,723
Thanks: 4,304
Thanked 1,249 Times in 780 Posts
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Garage
Ideal engine oil operating temp range

So, there's been a lot of hullaballoo about engine oil temps and oil coolers.

In looking at oil coolers, my question is this: what should we WANT our engine oil temps to be at (range-wise) when running them hard?

I know that running well above 230F is bad, but what is good? Is it the low 200's-220? Is it 185-194F of the Perrin cooler?

I know that we can't have our oil running too cold, so what's the operating range we should want it at?
__________________
Subies Of Blessed Memory: '05 Forester, '08 WRX, '13 STi
Daily Driver: 2014 BRZ 6MT Limited


^GT5 Replay Photo Mode^
SirBrass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2014, 11:07 PM   #2
Boss Paco
Subaru Certified Sales
 
Boss Paco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Drives: '13 BRZ Premium, '05 WRX STi
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 485
Thanks: 67
Thanked 147 Times in 113 Posts
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
So many numbers thrown around. I've read too much. It seems 210-230 is good/optimal. Over 300, or so I read on oil and racing forums, is when you're high. Under 180, or so I read, was too cold.

Watching the temps on my turbo car for two months, I ran about 210-230. No issues detected. Water temps stayed around mid-190's peaking just over low 200's. The other night I made several hard pulls (might've been racing) and my oil temp peaked just over 240. Car cooled down after cruising a mile and all was good.

Since then I have installed an oil cooler. I am looking for a 200* thermostat sandwich after talking with a good friend/Subaru guru/old drag racer.

Man, I wished someone who knew 0-20 and boxer motors would step in with some intelligent information and sound advice!
__________________

[Subaru WRX STi] Benson Block - Kelford Cams - PTE6466 - ID2000s - AEM - E85
[Subaru BRZ] Speed by Design Turbo Kit - Invidia N1 - BC Racing BR Coilovers - Rota RT5s
[Subaru WRX] Prodrive - Subaru Tecnica International - APS - Tein - Rota Titans
"The only thing that I trust in this world is cars!" - Don 'The Goods' Ready
Boss Paco is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Boss Paco For This Useful Post:
SirBrass (05-01-2014)
Old 05-01-2014, 11:59 PM   #3
Dezoris
Senior Member
 
Dezoris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Drives: FR-S
Location: IL
Posts: 2,848
Thanks: 516
Thanked 2,915 Times in 1,082 Posts
Mentioned: 149 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
The motor is designed to settle at around 200-215 during normal operation. Most motor oils advertise their flow rates at 100C or 212F as targets for efficiency.

On street cars that's the ideal range. Those historically who want oil coolers on the street choose 200F thermostats for every car I have been around. In this car you see the common oil cooler running 185F thermostats and with 0w20 if you look at thickness at those temps you are still good.

The main reason why 185 was chosen was because its a good starting point for if you track the car or run FI and need the extra cooling. For track most 4 banger race cars and the guys who I know run spec cars want oil temps between 220 and 240 on track. Issue with this car is we don't know how sensitive the heads are to heat and the DI system. So its best to always keep it under 240, and if you run above that often swap out the 0w20 to an oil that maintains a thickness closer to 0w20 at 212F to 225F when it operates at at those higher temps to adjust for oil flow in tight places like bearings.

Running the oil cooler than 175 all the time on 0w20 is not a huge deal but its not in the optimal efficiency range of how the motor was designed. My feeling after running UOA is anywhere between 185-220 on the street is good.

Track 220-240 good.
240-255 OK. 255-265 red zone, namely for 0w20.
265+ back off, too much until we have more UOA and longevity testing.
Dezoris is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Dezoris For This Useful Post:
Boss Paco (05-02-2014), DustinS (05-21-2015), Jman1759 (12-03-2014), kavanagh (05-04-2014), Koa (05-22-2015), rb6freak (05-03-2014), rixter145 (10-26-2017), SportInjected (05-02-2014), Sportsguy83 (05-02-2014), Turdinator (05-02-2014)
Old 05-02-2014, 12:17 AM   #4
SirBrass
Trust me, I'm the Doctor
 
SirBrass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Drives: 2014 BRZ Limited (6MT)
Location: Fallbrook
Posts: 2,723
Thanks: 4,304
Thanked 1,249 Times in 780 Posts
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Garage
I think then that I'll go with upgraded radiator (not sure if there's much of a difference between mishimoto and koyorad) and the forester XT oil cooler.
__________________
Subies Of Blessed Memory: '05 Forester, '08 WRX, '13 STi
Daily Driver: 2014 BRZ 6MT Limited


^GT5 Replay Photo Mode^
SirBrass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2014, 04:55 AM   #5
BatStig
Some say.....
 
BatStig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: 2007 Subaru Impreza 2.5i
Location: Kitchener ON
Posts: 459
Thanks: 738
Thanked 302 Times in 167 Posts
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
I've had the Perrin oil cooler installed for just over a year now. Just a few weeks ago I swapped out the thermostat with Mocals 203F thermostat. The weather here has been roughly 50F at best and while the oil hasn't been hitting 200F, it has been better than the 180F-if-you're-lucky standard thermostat.
BatStig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2014, 05:13 AM   #6
Kostamojen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Drives: 2017 GTI Sport
Location: Roseville, CA
Posts: 2,071
Thanks: 217
Thanked 938 Times in 496 Posts
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dezoris View Post
Track 220-240 good.
240-255 OK. 255-265 red zone, namely for 0w20.
265+ back off, too much until we have more UOA and longevity testing.
Stock I hit 260+ just driving on back roads, pushing the engine hard but not 100%. Temps outside were in the 70's, altitude was pretty high around 5000 feet.

After my OEM oil cooler, same conditions, it stays under 245.

This car needs an oil cooler from the factory...
Kostamojen is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Kostamojen For This Useful Post:
Dezoris (05-02-2014), kavanagh (05-04-2014), SirBrass (05-02-2014)
Old 05-02-2014, 12:00 PM   #7
Boss Paco
Subaru Certified Sales
 
Boss Paco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Drives: '13 BRZ Premium, '05 WRX STi
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 485
Thanks: 67
Thanked 147 Times in 113 Posts
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by BatStig View Post
I've had the Perrin oil cooler installed for just over a year now. Just a few weeks ago I swapped out the thermostat with Mocals 203F thermostat. The weather here has been roughly 50F at best and while the oil hasn't been hitting 200F, it has been better than the 180F-if-you're-lucky standard thermostat.


Got a PN or a link to a vendor who sells it?
__________________

[Subaru WRX STi] Benson Block - Kelford Cams - PTE6466 - ID2000s - AEM - E85
[Subaru BRZ] Speed by Design Turbo Kit - Invidia N1 - BC Racing BR Coilovers - Rota RT5s
[Subaru WRX] Prodrive - Subaru Tecnica International - APS - Tein - Rota Titans
"The only thing that I trust in this world is cars!" - Don 'The Goods' Ready
Boss Paco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2014, 12:29 PM   #8
Sportsguy83
I Love custom Turbo kits
 
Sportsguy83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Drives: Limited BRZ
Location: Miami
Posts: 10,562
Thanks: 19,650
Thanked 8,124 Times in 4,251 Posts
Mentioned: 433 Post(s)
Tagged: 12 Thread(s)
Garage
Like @Dezoris said you want to be between 200-215
Sportsguy83 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Sportsguy83 For This Useful Post:
kavanagh (05-04-2014)
Old 05-02-2014, 01:26 PM   #9
arghx7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Drives: car
Location: cold
Posts: 599
Thanks: 72
Thanked 595 Times in 185 Posts
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I can tell you from a lot of accumulated knowledge with aluminum block engines, anything under about 135C or roughly 270F is safe--give or take some degrees. Is it optimal for power? No, but it's safe. Notice that most modern engines will go into some kind of failsafe mode, begging to reduce power when you hit around 270F? You won't incur long term damage if you keep oil temps below that unless Subaru dropped the ball.

Now will an oil cooler help keep your temperatures lower? Sure, as long as the system as a whole can reject that heat (radiator etc). Should you go get one if you're still relatively stock? if you can afford to, go for it. Do you need to get one for the health of your engine? IMO, not unless you are turbo and/or you are hitting 270F noticeably. On the subject of oil temperatures being too low, well you increase friction if it's too low, and friction is wasted energy. That's not an issue when running them hard.

As for the question of whether the car should have come with an oil cooler from the factory:

The way that determination is often made is that there is a steady-state "thermal design point" for the engine. That point will probably come from simulation when the engine exists on paper. It may be representative of towing a trailer up a grade in the desert, or running the vehicle on the autobahn. The thermal design point is some speed and torque point with some air and temperature setting, all run on the engine in a lab at a steady state.

If the engine can run at the thermal design point and the peak power point under the pre-determined conditions you're probably not going to have an oil cooler as standard equipment. The oil temperatures would have to be exceeding the limit, again roughly 135C-140C.

Now we've seen some relatively high profile recent cases where stock engines were easily going into limp mode due to oil temperatures. I suspect the root cause is a poor choice of thermal design point, or an inability to convince management that such conditions would be reached regularly by most customers. Some manager somewhere looked at a Powerpoint presentation and said "ok, based on what I'm seeing, you're not going to be getting an oil cooler for your engine"
arghx7 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to arghx7 For This Useful Post:
akyp (05-03-2014)
Old 05-02-2014, 01:43 PM   #10
stugray
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Drives: 2013 GBS BRZ Limited
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,925
Thanks: 627
Thanked 1,441 Times in 708 Posts
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I know that you want to allow the oil to get above boiling (212F) to boil off any water.

For DD that is not a problem as a good hard drive every once in a while will do that.

For those that want an oil cooler, but dont track the car much, you want a thermostat so the oil doesnt run below 212 for very long durations.

Another good reason for a thermostat if you live in a cold climate is that pumping very cold oil through a cooler can blow the cooler (I have seen it happen and the results were literally visible from orbit - if interested, I'll post the pics :-)

See the line of kitty-litter from the pits to the starting grid? That was at Hastings, NE

stugray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 02:23 AM   #11
SirBrass
Trust me, I'm the Doctor
 
SirBrass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Drives: 2014 BRZ Limited (6MT)
Location: Fallbrook
Posts: 2,723
Thanks: 4,304
Thanked 1,249 Times in 780 Posts
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by stugray View Post
I know that you want to allow the oil to get above boiling (212F) to boil off any water.

For DD that is not a problem as a good hard drive every once in a while will do that.

For those that want an oil cooler, but dont track the car much, you want a thermostat so the oil doesnt run below 212 for very long durations.

Another good reason for a thermostat if you live in a cold climate is that pumping very cold oil through a cooler can blow the cooler (I have seen it happen and the results were literally visible from orbit - if interested, I'll post the pics :-)

See the line of kitty-litter from the pits to the starting grid? That was at Hastings, NE

No thermostat for those of us who are going to get the forester XT oil cooler kit. Oil never flows to an external air/liquid heat exchanger. Rather the regulator core is fed by the engine's coolant lines (not the radiator cold return) & thus integrated into the engine's basic coolant circulation. It brings oil up to temp faster in the cold & keeps it down in the heat.

I just ordered a koyo radiator today. I'll source the forester XT oil cooler parts after my next paycheck.

On phone I am. Therefore, if mistakes I make, Frank Oz blame you should.
__________________
Subies Of Blessed Memory: '05 Forester, '08 WRX, '13 STi
Daily Driver: 2014 BRZ 6MT Limited


^GT5 Replay Photo Mode^
SirBrass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 03:37 AM   #12
Kostamojen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Drives: 2017 GTI Sport
Location: Roseville, CA
Posts: 2,071
Thanks: 217
Thanked 938 Times in 496 Posts
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirBrass View Post
No thermostat for those of us who are going to get the forester XT oil cooler kit. Oil never flows to an external air/liquid heat exchanger. Rather the regulator core is fed by the engine's coolant lines (not the radiator cold return) & thus integrated into the engine's basic coolant circulation. It brings oil up to temp faster in the cold & keeps it down in the heat.
Yup. Simple efficient design, been used by Subaru for over two decades, proven to cool the temps properly, even used on some BRZ's we've seen Subaru showing at track days...



Why these weren't included from the factory, is beyond me... They even offered this style of oil cooler as an "accessory" for Foresters a decade ago!
Kostamojen is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Kostamojen For This Useful Post:
SirBrass (05-03-2014)
Old 05-03-2014, 09:33 AM   #13
SirBrass
Trust me, I'm the Doctor
 
SirBrass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Drives: 2014 BRZ Limited (6MT)
Location: Fallbrook
Posts: 2,723
Thanks: 4,304
Thanked 1,249 Times in 780 Posts
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
Yup. Simple efficient design, been used by Subaru for over two decades, proven to cool the temps properly, even used on some BRZ's we've seen Subaru showing at track days...



Why these weren't included from the factory, is beyond me... They even offered this style of oil cooler as an "accessory" for Foresters a decade ago!
It also takes up so little room that can be used for a super charger, intercooler & the like.

On phone I am. Therefore, if mistakes I make, Frank Oz blame you should.
__________________
Subies Of Blessed Memory: '05 Forester, '08 WRX, '13 STi
Daily Driver: 2014 BRZ 6MT Limited


^GT5 Replay Photo Mode^
SirBrass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 12:22 PM   #14
BRZPDX
Boosted Member
 
BRZPDX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Drives: 2013 SWP BRZ Limited
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,979
Thanks: 524
Thanked 943 Times in 497 Posts
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
How effective are these for a fi'd FA20? I like the fact that it doesn't mess with oil pressures, and doesn't add too much complications. mild PNW weather, street use, occasional autox, this should be good enough? I'm contemplating if upgraded radiator is a better route.
__________________
Suzuki Swift GTI '89, Subaru Impreza L '96, Lancer OZ '03, Subaru Impreza WRX '06, Honda CBR600RR Graffiti, Volvo c30 T5 R '11, Subaru BRZ '13, Audi RS4 2007

SUV's: Mercedes Benz R500 '06, Mercedes Benz ML350 '12
BRZPDX is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Engine oil standard operating temperature brillo Mechanical Maintenance (Oil, Fluids, Break-In, Servicing) 20 04-22-2015 01:12 AM
FS: BNIB Prosport Guages (Water Temp / Exhaust Gas Temp) AtlasMick Interior Parts (Incl. Lighting) 2 03-31-2015 05:47 PM
STRI DSD SLM II Gauges (boost/oil temp/oil press/water temp/egt) BNIB ziptiedae86 Interior Parts (Incl. Lighting) 0 10-29-2013 11:50 PM
How to tell Engine's Operating Temp? tez2013 Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting 9 06-03-2013 01:33 AM
Engine oil temp now available in Torque App Yruyur Engine, Exhaust, Transmission 8 02-03-2013 11:52 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.