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Old 07-08-2019, 01:39 PM   #99
ETM_Shaman
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Oil pickup test results

Hi guys,

I finally got to do the oil pickup tests with the original 19mm (3/4") pickup Chris from Killer B sent me.

I did the tests on the same day, same oil, same process. I changed the outlet pressure port to the stock switch location because it seemed more consistent than on the crank passage.

Stock:


Killer B 19mm (3/4"):


Modified Killer B 22mm (1"):


And this is the results graph:


As you can see outlet pressures are close but inlet pressures not so much. Killer B's is good for most of the improvement and will probably have even higher inlet pressures when used in a stock engine with tight clearances.

I think Killer B's will be enough for 99% of the people and for those using loose clearances with more flow it's not that hard to cut the 3/4" pipe and weld a 1" pipe in the same location (much easier that what we had to do).

It's hard to know if it's worth it but any positive displacement pump will always perform better with a higher inlet pressure. That's why I would recommend to anyone to get the Killer B pickup which already does a lot in that regard.

Any well fabricated less restrictive (straight 3/4" at least) will work, please don't think I have any particular interest with Killer B, but they were the only ones that had what I was looking for (and top quality) and Chris was kind enough to send me one for testing.

My engine has about 50 hard laps in our local track and a lot of very spirited driving and sliding around, all with clean oil and filters afterwards so I feel confident it will endure whatever comes. Touch on wood
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Old 09-25-2019, 07:38 AM   #100
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Hate to Necro a thread like this... But would like to know if anybody is using the Reimax High capacity pump in conjunction with the Killer B? I have minor timing cover porting, not as dramatic as OP but I'm building my motor to hopefully never open back up, and was curious your thoughts puting both those parts together along with maybe porting a lil further?

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Old 09-25-2019, 05:54 PM   #101
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Hate to Necro a thread like this... But would like to know if anybody is using the Reimax High capacity pump in conjunction with the Killer B? I have minor timing cover porting, not as dramatic as OP but I'm building my motor to hopefully never open back up, and was curious your thoughts puting both those parts together along with maybe porting a lil further?

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I知 actually in the process of building my engine, i致e Just purchased the Reimax pump and killer B pickup to install. I知 actually considering running the OEM clearances on crank and rod too as i知 not aiming for crazy power but will look to rev out to at least 8K. I知 hoping the combination will keep the bearings intact on 2 & 3.
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Old 09-25-2019, 06:10 PM   #102
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I知 actually in the process of building my engine, i致e Just purchased the Reimax pump and killer B pickup to install. I知 actually considering running the OEM clearances on crank and rod too as i知 not aiming for crazy power but will look to rev out to at least 8K. I知 hoping the combination will keep the bearings intact on 2 & 3.
I'm running all stock bearing clearances, and actually pulling my limiter DOWN by 200 RPM for my own reasons. Let me know how those end up working with each other! Keep in mind you CAN use the common oil feed spot on top of block for your turbo, but especially if you're running a ball bearing turbo put in a pressure regulator. Turbosmart makes one that keeps oil feed to turbo no higher than 40psi, and has an extra line port that I'll be using for my oil pressure gauge. I'll put a couple washers on the temp sensor, but with the mild porting I already have done (timing cover, upper oil pan 90ー elbow smoothed out a lol bit, & main oil feed for bearings) I think I'll be plenty good.

But my goal with this motor is to never open it back up ever again (knock on wood) even with 10-12 psi with flex fuel on my "go" map (7-10 on my "safety" map) that being the case im more than happy to get the upgraded pump, if it'll help me.... But I'm hoping not toooo spend much time north of about 6500rpm. Pickup tube for sure, and pump gears only if they play nice with the pickup tube.


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Old 09-25-2019, 10:43 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Ricks919 View Post
Hate to Necro a thread like this... But would like to know if anybody is using the Reimax High capacity pump in conjunction with the Killer B? I have minor timing cover porting, not as dramatic as OP but I'm building my motor to hopefully never open back up, and was curious your thoughts puting both those parts together along with maybe porting a lil further?

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I run a nissan 15mm billet pump, 2jz pickup(24mm), ported block, 8an external direct feed to main oil gallery, 10mm oil galley plate, oil restrictor on drivers head and ported main bearings.

Also grooved main and enlarged crossdrilling to .250 on #3 main of the crankshaft.

30 row oil cooler with its own oil pump.
Probably forgot some of my mods.

I have around 95lbs at 8000rpm at ~220f oil. I also run 10w 60 castrol TWS and the tall blue oil filter. The tall blue oil filter susposed to have the most filter area of subaru oil filters.
gt4202r ~12 lbs runs extremely strong for such low boost.

Last edited by solidsnake11; 09-26-2019 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 09-26-2019, 02:52 AM   #104
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30 row oil cooler with its on oil pump.
I assume you mean, "it's own oil pump".

How is this setup and plumbed?

Thanks!
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Old 09-26-2019, 06:17 AM   #105
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I assume you mean, "it's own oil pump".

How is this setup and plumbed?

Thanks!

I modified a scavenge pump from the WRX. Pump has 6an fittings welded to it. 6an welded to the oil pan, to pick up oil, then though the pump, oil cooler and then returns in the front cover.

Last edited by solidsnake11; 09-26-2019 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 01-18-2020, 10:26 PM   #106
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This is a bleeder...

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Originally Posted by ETM_Shaman View Post
Hi all, this is my first post but I'm a long time user of the wealth of information shared in this forum.

I'm co-owner of a performance shop in Lima - Peru and have a 2013 Toyota GT86 as a personal car. I wanted big power so I installed a Sprintex 335 supercharger together with many other upgrades and a full engine build.
Since then I struggled with oil starvation issues very similiar to the well documented problems in this good threads:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63723

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131419

To sum it up, I had three engine failures with damaged bearings indicating oil starvation. Oil pressure was always good (I have a gauge with sensor tapped to the main oil gallery), engine build was clean and checked (we've built many performance engines). I chose to use 0.04 mm main and 0.06 mm rod clearance, and although a little looser than spec, by no means reason for failure. I'm also using Motul 300V 10W40 oil. For some reason there was not enough oil flow to the bearings (rod bearings suffer first of course), particularly at high RPMs: I could do a couple hundred km of break in below 5,000 RPMs full power without problems, but as soon as I started hitting my 7,600 RPM redline, boom. A stock engine can take 7,600 RPM all day long so

This felt a lot like oil flow restriction of some sort, having ruled out most of other variables. I had a much more detailed look at the oil galleries in this engine.

The first thing I noticed is the very long and restrictive oil galleries from the pump to the crank (including the main gallery which tapers from 12mm to 8mm) so I did this:

1. main oil gallery enlarged and straightened to 12.7mm
2. block entrance enlarged (shoulder modified for bigger oring)


3. pump to block gallery enlarged to 12.7mm


4. all restrictive parts on the timing cover galleries ported / enlarged to 12.7 mm (including galleries to / from the oil filter)





5. blocked small return hole in oil pump with epoxy and shimmed the PRV 2.0 mm

After this work I had another oil starvation engine failure, at first I was at a loss and very frustrated.
Then I looked at the only part I hadn't improved: the inlet side of the pump. After all I know now, I think this is THE most important part to improve, even in stock engines:

After reading a lot about oil pump cavitation I had a much more detailed look at my oil pump's inlet parts. After three engine failures, cavitation HAD to leave a mark if it was part of the problem:




a smoking gun right in front of me!

I wanted some confirmation with the engine running (maybe the oil pump came cast like that? how can I be sure?). Cavitation is very hard to evidence in real life, luckily after a lot of searching I found this amazing research paper by E. FROSINA, A. SENATORE , D. BUONO, F. P. BOVE of the University of Naples, Italy:

https://www.gtisoft.com/wp-content/u...r_IUC-2017.pdf

Although the pump is not exactly like ours, it's very similar and the information I'm looking for applies: how inlet pressure (something I can measure with a little work) relates to cavitation and pump output.

This is the summary for that (taken straight from their paper):



So if you want good mass flow you need to keep your oil pump inlet pressure above -0.2 bar at all times.

I rebuilt my engine, tapped the oil pump's inlet and connected it to my vac / boost gauge and started doing tests:



To my surprise, inlet pressure would drop to -0.23 bar at high RPMs. This was with the stock oil pickup but with the other oil inlet galleries already enlarged! With a completely stock oil pump inlet, pressures would surely drop below that causing heavy cavitation. I didn't test like that because I'd have to tear the engine apart to enlarge the internal inlet galleries after the tests while the oil pickup is easily changed.

I ordered a Killer B Motorsport Ultimate FA20 WRX Oil Pickup and modified it (the WRX FA20 pickup has a different length and orientation, besides, their pickup tube has aprox 19.4 mm inner diameter and I wanted at least 22.0 mm):



We used a TIG welded 1" pipe that had 22.4 mm inner diameter:



After the install I repeated the tests and these are the results:



Big difference in inlet pressure but small difference in outlet pressure (which ilustrates how oil pressure in the outlet doesn't tell you 100% of the story).

After about 1,000 km of very heavy (almost track-like) use with clean oil and oil filter inspections I'm confident we've solved the problem. I'd love to take a look at the rod bearings but it would be hell in this engine.

I think stock engines survive because they have very tight clearances that keep oil flow low and the inlet and outlet galleries are *just enough*. Low viscosity oil also helps in the cavitation department. Even so I think that stock engines that are regularly taken above 7,000 RPM are cavitating, just not enough to destroy the engine (and sometimes yes, look at all the "spun rod bearing" stories). All FA20 engines will benefit from a much less restrictive oil pump inlet. Taking into account that the stock oil pickup elbow is THE most restrictive part of the whole inlet, a good enough solution might be to just install a Killer B improved pickup. They even have one correctly fabricated for the GT86 FA20 now (I will still ask them to make a 1" tube version for my engines).

The car has a lot of power and there's room for more . I had a lot of upgrade paths paused while solving this issue.

My happy car:


This engine a bleeder. The image here that points the little pin that's pressed in in the above hole on top of the plunger it's a oil restrictor. It is a hollow pin that's pressed into the orifice just above the plunger.

If you want to run a small experiment just cover the inlet hole on top with your finger and add some 30 weight oil into where here many feeds the turbo drain line. The oil will start coming out from the said pIN. I believe ot feeds the timing chain, however, thee amounts of oil that flows through the orifice or oil restrictor is pretty significant.

And just like it the other restricting areas this could be addressed and it could tapped and drill. Maybe an oil restrictor being similar to a ball bearing turbo oil restrictor or smaller.

Anyways thank you for Killer B I do have that pick up tube.

Also, I did the Remax regular size oil pump and addressed many of The Kinks mentioned.

Lastly, When installing the oil control valve, that little filter, its plastic frame should be oriented in such way that is not in the way of the oil path.

Try to enjoy this
Attached Images
  

Last edited by chewbacca; 01-19-2020 at 09:23 PM.
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Old 01-18-2020, 10:54 PM   #107
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I'm co-owner of a performance shop in Lima - Peru and have a 2013 Toyota GT86 as a personal car. I wanted big power so I installed a Sprintex 335 supercharger together with many other upgrades and a full engine build]
A little off topic but you don稚 have a build thread.
I really want to do a built engine with the 335 sps, currently using the 210 and i have wmi which i see your using as well.
Curious what pulley your using and how much boost its making?
And how much whp/wtq your making on what gas?
Did you lower compression?
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Old 09-02-2020, 12:40 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by ETM_Shaman View Post
Hi guys,

I finally got to do the oil pickup tests with the original 19mm (3/4") pickup Chris from Killer B sent me.

[...]

My engine has about 50 hard laps in our local track and a lot of very spirited driving and sliding around, all with clean oil and filters afterwards so I feel confident it will endure whatever comes. Touch on wood
It's been over a year since the last update.
Hope it is still running fine!
Curious to learn if there is any new data, lessons learned, etc.
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Old 10-08-2020, 02:42 PM   #109
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@Ultramaroon, @solidsnake11, @Irace86.2.0
Great information guys!


Before you chuckle at my naivete, please explain to me like I'm a 13 year old..

So the *15 location is where the OEM sensor is, but the *12 is where the hex cap is? Or is it something else?
I'm installing an oil pressure gauge, but not sure if I should install it at the OEM sensor location, or the one at the top. At idle, how much pressure difference are you getting at idle? And at 6000 rpm, how much?

Factory spec is 7.3 psi at idle and 73 psi at 6000 rpm. So.... will they translate linearly for the *12 location?
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Old 11-12-2020, 08:33 AM   #110
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Old 11-12-2020, 08:47 AM   #111
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Old 11-12-2020, 09:23 AM   #112
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When my motor went after recall I used an IAG short block and one of the reasons was the improvements they made to the oiling system. That along with the Killer Bee tube. Much more confidence in the motor now.
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