Failure After J02 Recall - Discussion Threads

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Thank you for an excellent contribution. I wish the best for all those caught up in this expensive mess.

I was going to write a multi paragraph response to his dissertation but decided that people are only going to hear what they want to so there is little sense. The class action is the cheap and easy route and those routes are usually the worst way to go. All I have said is that I feel they are barking up the wrong tree.
To be perfectly clear I also hope them well and would enjoy nothing more than seeing them win this and being proven wrong!

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

..The class action is the cheap and easy route and those routes are usually the worst way to go. All I have said is that I feel they are barking up the wrong tree...

And usually the route that ends up with the least return for the injured party.

Basically though, what @Tcoat said. I've said my piece and right now at least don't have a dog in this hunt, but hope it works out for everyone.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I was going to write a multi paragraph response to his dissertation but decided that people are only going to hear what they want to so there is little sense. The class action is the cheap and easy route and those routes are usually the worst way to go. All I have said is that I feel they are barking up the wrong tree.
To be perfectly clear I also hope them well and would enjoy nothing more than seeing them win this and being proven wrong!

I've learned more about legal matters from reading this forum than I have anywhere else. Not afraid to admit my ignorance. Would love to read your response to what seems like a well-reasoned take on the issue.


I get what you're saying. I've given up arguing many topics that are right in my wheelhouse.

[Project N64]

Had recall done, apparently my cam carriers were leaking. Lucky for me third party warranty covered that 1200 repair, is that a common problem? The bad news, I notice a curbed wheel two days after picking the car up, brought it up to dealer they told me there's nothing they can do about it. Make sure to always inspect your cars guys, now I know

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[frs23]

The other problem here is really California forcing you to do something that is not all risk free and with a potential catastrophic price. Maybe someone should sue them

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by killmequickly

Remember they are here to make money, and in the case of contingency they are essentially working for free because they feel they will make a larger sum in return. Again, their history indicates they at least see legal merit in this situation.

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

I've learned more about legal matters from reading this forum than I have anywhere else. Not afraid to admit my ignorance. Would love to read your response to what seems like a well-reasoned take on the issue.


I get what you're saying. I've given up arguing many topics that are right in my wheelhouse.

People go into class action suits thinking they are going to get back what they lost. This very, very, very rarely is the case. The only people that make money on a class action are the lawyers. Of course they are willing to take it on since they take their pay right off the top. As KMQ so nicely pointed out it will take a pile of work and a number of people to present such a case and it will not be cheep. The fees are not separate from the payout so by the time the lawyers are done there can be little to go around. The only other person to get much of anything is the person that first registered the suit. The rest only get the leftovers. Don't need to take my word on this just do a quick search on "Are class action suits worth it?" and see what everybody (except the law firms) have to say about it. I have stated that I was suspicious that the person originally pushing this suit was a shill for the lawyers and have seen nothing that reduces that suspicion. The sad part is that the more people that participate the more money the law firm makes and the less each individual would receive if won. Each of those people also gives up any right to sue the dealerships down the road if the class action fails. It is pretty much a no win option for the participants. https://www.frugalconfessions.com/ex...uits-examples/


Now, on his comparison to a claim against McDonalds. If we were talking about a manufacturing issue that came directly out of a company and they were aware of it but did nothing then his comparison to McDonalds would be correct and a suit against them would be appropriate. Still probably would not get much if won but it would be suing the right party at least. In this case it would be like trying to sue McDonalds because several people got ill on a product but McDonalds being able to prove that it was not their product but improper prep by the staff in the independent franchise that were at fault. If they have provided cooking instructions that were not followed then that is on the individual stores not corporate McDonalds.

People can believe that the dealers are "agents" of Toyota all they want but the fact remains that most dealerships are independently owned and operated and are not a part of corporate Toyota in any way. Suing corporate Toyota for errors at the dealer level is likely a pretty easy case for the resources that Toyota can bring to play to argue and win. If people want to win more than 10 coupons for free oil changes or a cheque for $200 they need to go after the dealership that screwed their car up. Yes that will cost them up front but they could recover those costs in the settlement. There would seem to be plenty of evidence to be able to win an individual case against a dealer but almost zero to be able to take on corporate Toyota or Subaru.


THIS is why I feel the class action is the wrong route to take but will say again I truly do hope I am wrong and they get something out of it.

[humfrz]

WOW! A Monday morning "white paper" -


humfrz

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Now, on his comparison to a claim against McDonalds. If we were talking about a manufacturing issue that came directly out of a company and they were aware of it but did nothing then his comparison to McDonalds would be correct and a suit against them would be appropriate.

Case in point, while it wasn't a class action, was the Liebeck vs McDonalds case (the coffee in the lap case).

The franchisee was following the corporate guidelines for coffee temperatures, therefore McDonalds as a whole was found culpable in the case. Had MCDonalds' overall policy been to keep the coffee at 120 degrees instead 180, then it would have been the franchisee.

Of course, nothing really changed after the suit was settled. McDonalds (and most coffee servers including Starbucks with carryout) still serve their coffee at that same temperature. Also, Ms. Liebeck (who ended up with $650,000) originally wanted only $20,000 (her actual medical expenses), McDonald's offered $800 and she lawyered up once they refused to move off that amount.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Case in point, while it wasn't a class action, was the Liebeck vs McDonalds case (the coffee in the lap case).

The franchisee was following the corporate guidelines for coffee temperatures, therefore McDonalds as a whole was found culpable in the case. Had MCDonalds' overall policy been to keep the coffee at 120 degrees instead 180, then it would have been the franchisee.

Of course, nothing really changed after the suit was settled. McDonalds (and most coffee servers including Starbucks with carryout) still serve their coffee at that same temperature. Also, Ms. Liebeck (who ended up with $650,000) originally wanted only $20,000 (her actual medical expenses), McDonald's offered $800 and she lawyered up once they refused to move off that amount.

No doubt that the law firm knows exactly who should be involved but are hoping that Toyota will just cave and they can make their money while all the others get a free carwash and a new set of wiper blades or something.


Toyota is not dumb and they no doubt checked into their legal liability when this all first came up. They would have been paying for repairs all along if they though they would be on the hook for it.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

THIS is why I feel the class action is the wrong route to take but will say again I truly do hope I am wrong and they get something out of it.

I know you've said it before but reading it a few different ways/times helps the info settle in. Both of your points are now clear; the class action and independence of the dealers. Thanks!

[Little Mt. Fuji]

Update:
Motor spun rod bearing 4 back in July 1500 miles after recall with about 85k miles.
Got car back 4 weeks later with a refurbished shortblock. They reused the heads and cams (probably the coolant and oil too). No hassle or arguing and at no cost to me (I really woulda liked a nice yell or two to the GM).
Just passed 1500 miles on the new shortblock today. No issues and still feels good. Did an oil change at 500 miles and oil looked good. Hopefully she doesnt have a temper tantrum and rod knock like the last one. Im still not sold on it not blowing up till I hit 3000 miles on it, but no matter what it will still look good in my driveway with or without a engine.

[killmequickly]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The class action is the cheap and easy route and those routes are usually the worst way to go.

True, class action lawsuits are cheap and easy.. for the people who are filing suit. There is usually little to no monetary cost and is quite easy in that everyone filing suit usually has the the same grievances in the matter and only a one or a handful of people are needed to give facts and information. The rest can sit back and wait for results.

However, for the lawyers, this is not the case, for a class action lawyer this is the expensive and hard route. They must work upwards to several years with no pay and fight other often more experienced and more expensive lawyers (hired by multi billion dollar corporations with deep pockets.).

Originally Posted by Tcoat

All I have said is that I feel they are barking up the wrong tree.

Are you a lawyer Tcoat? I am not one but I do know that what you "feel" and what actually plays out and stands in court are two very different things.

Again, go check out the law firms confirmed wins or give them a call and ask a few questions instead of giving us your "feels".

I will be calling them next week myself and will be asking a hundred questions until I am fully satisfied and from there I will decide whether or not to join suit or file in small claims myself.

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

And usually the route that ends up with the least return for the injured party.

This is true for the majority of class action lawsuits, but not always, and it is dependent on how much can be recovered, how many people are party to the suit, and the percentage split, but it is an option and a viable one at that. Don't let that deter others from making this decision for themselves.

I am only trying to educate others in the fact that this is an option because in this thread I have only seen negative opinions and "feels" regarding the issue which is disingenuous and robbing others of a decision that could at least give them some recourse.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

People go into class action suits thinking they are going to get back what they lost........

Do you speak for everyone here? for everyone that has had this issue? I think at least some of us know that we will not get everything we have lost however some of us have exhausted all other options in the matter or some of us think there is a greater chance of at least getting something from this than going through other avenues or doing nothing at all.

Each has its own pros and cons, I have broken them down further for anyone interested.

Individual Suit

Pros:

- If you win, the amount is typically a sum that is closer to what you expect especially when backed up by receipts, documentation, and other valid claims legally allowed

- Typically takes less time than Class Action Lawsuits but Longer than Small Claims

- Dealers/Toyota may see you as a low priority issue and not fight as hard against you. (Dealers may fight harder because they are directly affected)

- Depending on size and other variables, may get attention of Toyota and/or the media

Cons:
- Typically paid lawyer fees out of pocket and up front but can be negotiated or offset if you can find a lawyer willing to take the case on contingency.

- Time taken out of day to work with lawyer (typically lawyers have same time schedules as most average people like us so we may have to ask for time off from our jobs)

- If you want a better lawyer, the cost per hour goes up

- Each individual will not see same results (for example if 50 FRS and BRZ owners sue for the same issue in different states or in the same state and city for that matter, the spread may be 50% win 50% lose [not real numbers, just an example])

Individual Small Claims

Pros:

- Depending on state, lawyers are prohibited from representing either side (this can be a pro/con depending)

- Usually takes less time than other options

Cons:
- Depending on state the amount claimed is capped (here in Texas $10,000 is the max damages you can claim, but I have seen other states with $3,000 cap, $5,000 cap, etc. check your state for cap)

- Just like on Judge Judy, it is up to you to defend yourself and prove your case, you must provide evidence and appeal to the judge as to why you are in the right and they are in the wrong. (The opposition are not allowed to hire or use a lawyer so they must have a representative of their company doing the same thing on their side.)

Class Action

Pros:
- Contingency based, little to no money required

- Little to no time expenditure, you can sit back and wait

- If the suit wins, everyone in the suit wins

- Typically more experienced lawyers with track record involved. (Typically they don't give multi-million - multi-billion dollar suits to any Joe Blow lawyer. The experienced and top lawyers in the firm typically lead the case.)

- You have a choice. (If you don't want to, you have a choice to opt out. and later litigate on your own terms)

- Will get the attention of Toyota and the attention of the media. (Whether or not you "feel" the party being sued is correct or not, A class action lawsuit will get their attention and the attention of the media)

Cons:
- Likely a smaller payout than expected or than required to cover actual expenses

- Can take anywhere from months to a few years


Again, it is up to each individual to think and proceed with what they think is their best option. If you are affected and are interested I would just give them a call and ask them what their percentage take is, how the money will be split, how likely you will be to get x amount of dollars, etc. Ask away until your face is blue then make an informed decision.


Don't rely on "feels".

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by killmequickly

True, class action lawsuits are cheap and easy.. for the people who are filing suit. There is usually little to no monetary cost and is quite easy in that everyone filing suit usually has the the same grievances in the matter and only a one or a handful of people are needed to give facts and information. The rest can sit back and wait for results.

However, for the lawyers, this is not the case, for a class action lawyer this is the expensive and hard route. They must work upwards to several years with no pay and fight other often more experienced and more expensive lawyers (hired by multi billion dollar corporations with deep pockets.).



Are you a lawyer Tcoat? I am not one but I do know that what you "feel" and what actually plays out and stands in court are two very different things.

Again, go check out the law firms confirmed wins or give them a call and ask a few questions instead of giving us your "feels".

I will be calling them next week myself and will be asking a hundred questions until I am fully satisfied and from there I will decide whether or not to join suit or file in small claims myself.



This is true for the majority of class action lawsuits, but not always, and it is dependent on how much can be recovered, how many people are party to the suit, and the percentage split, but it is an option and a viable one at that. Don't let that deter others from making this decision for themselves.

I am only trying to educate others in the fact that this is an option because in this thread I have only seen negative opinions and "feels" regarding the issue which is disingenuous and robbing others of a decision that could at least give them some recourse.



Do you speak for everyone here? for everyone that has had this issue? I think at least some of us know that we will not get everything we have lost however some of us have exhausted all other options in the matter or some of us think there is a greater chance of at least getting something from this than going through other avenues or doing nothing at all.

Each has its own pros and cons, I have broken them down further for anyone interested.

Individual Suit

Pros:

- If you win, the amount is typically a sum that is closer to what you expect especially when backed up by receipts, documentation, and other valid claims legally allowed

- Typically takes less time than Class Action Lawsuits but Longer than Small Claims

- Dealers/Toyota may see you as a low priority issue and not fight as hard against you. (Dealers may fight harder because they are directly affected)

- Depending on size and other variables, may get attention of Toyota and/or the media

Cons:
- Typically paid lawyer fees out of pocket and up front but can be negotiated or offset if you can find a lawyer willing to take the case on contingency.

- Time taken out of day to work with lawyer (typically lawyers have same time schedules as most average people like us so we may have to ask for time off from our jobs)

- If you want a better lawyer, the cost per hour goes up

- Each individual will not see same results (for example if 50 FRS and BRZ owners sue for the same issue in different states or in the same state and city for that matter, the spread may be 50% win 50% lose [not real numbers, just an example])

Individual Small Claims

Pros:

- Depending on state, lawyers are prohibited from representing either side (this can be a pro/con depending)

- Usually takes less time than other options

Cons:
- Depending on state the amount claimed is capped (here in Texas $10,000 is the max damages you can claim, but I have seen other states with $3,000 cap, $5,000 cap, etc. check your state for cap)

- Just like on Judge Judy, it is up to you to defend yourself and prove your case, you must provide evidence and appeal to the judge as to why you are in the right and they are in the wrong. (The opposition are not allowed to hire or use a lawyer so they must have a representative of their company doing the same thing on their side.)

Class Action

Pros:
- Contingency based, little to no money required

- Little to no time expenditure, you can sit back and wait

- If the suit wins, everyone in the suit wins

- Typically more experienced lawyers with track record involved. (Typically they don't give multi-million - multi-billion dollar suits to any Joe Blow lawyer. The experienced and top lawyers in the firm typically lead the case.)

- You have a choice. (If you don't want to, you have a choice to opt out. and later litigate on your own terms)

- Will get the attention of Toyota and the attention of the media. (Whether or not you "feel" the party being sued is correct or not, A class action lawsuit will get their attention and the attention of the media)

Cons:
- Likely a smaller payout than expected or than required to cover actual expenses

- Can take anywhere from months to a few years


Again, it is up to each individual to think and proceed with what they think is their best option. If you are affected and are interested I would just give them a call and ask them what their percentage take is, how the money will be split, how likely you will be to get x amount of dollars, etc. Ask away until your face is blue then make an informed decision.


Don't rely on "feels".

I used the word “feel” because I was expressing an opinion. If you want to present your side as fact then present us some facts not law firm propaganda. I become more convinced we just have some law firm shills on here every time somebody appears out of nowhere screaming “class action” against Toyota.

You said it is up to each individual to decide so what is wrong with my presenting some of the negatives? Should they not have more than one opinion to dwell on?

Don’t rely on misinformation.

[RickyBobby]

Some info on small claims court suits:
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...uch-30031.html If you live in a state with low dollar limits don't expect to get back what you paid for a new engine.

Most states, i.e., TN, allow you to be represented by a lawyer, but this is not very cost effective for small claims court.

Been there done that with a rental tenant.
It's a Judge Judy type court usually presided over by an old cantankerous judge with one foot out the retirement door.
You don't automatically receive the money when you win a judgment. If the defendant doesn't voluntarily pay, you'll have to use additional legal procedures to collect. https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...hapter3-1.html

I won my case but had to go the wage garnish route to collect my money, a major PITA.

A bit repetitive, but I agree that a class action suit, while an option, is not the way to go. Quoting Tcoat, "There would seem to be plenty of evidence to be able to win an individual case against a dealer but almost zero to be able to take on corporate Toyota or Subaru."

I realize that those that live in states, other then CA, have their reasons for getting the recall done, but given the greater odds of engine failure caused by the recall, possibly lower now since more have been done, then having a valve spring fracture, why?