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Subaru BRZ General Forum All discussions about the Subaru BRZ coupe


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Old 06-06-2012, 07:19 PM   #1
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Post 2014 Subaru BRZ - Minor and Major Mechanical Changes


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Today, I was on the phone with a friend in Japan who is one that is head over heels about the GT86. While Subaru and Toyota information leeks have stopped...... for now... There has been some idle talk in the JP BRZ/86 community about the upcoming models. (Remember these are only predictions and rumors from the land of the rising sun)

1 of which is the changes that are being made to the FA20...particularly FA201.

+Some have been concerned about the mid range dip found on the BRZ torqeband, spawning many different theories with no real conclusive explanation. Intake acoustics have been found to have the greatest effect on this...

Subaru's solution for next year is to adopt TGV into next years model lineup.

Quote:
In order to make the vertical vortex (tumble) gas into the combustion chamber and intake from the intake manifold, intake port with a septum and TGV (tumble generator valve federated), oriented tumble intake port has been adopted.

TGV is a valve for generating a tumble actively in the low-speed range, close the valve, the easier it is to raise the tumble of the intake air, raising the combustion efficiency and to increase the gas flow.

Intake port with a septum is divided into two parts by a partition wall passage, which leads to tumble intake port as it is oriented.

There are also separate parts by a partition wall tumble intake port-oriented, in the low-speed range while increasing the flow rate leads to a state to pass through the passage of the outer gas engine, easy to make the tumble. At high speed TGV is the is open, and uses the entire intake port.
The state had created an intake easy, pass-through in the intake port tumble. The tumble is sent into the combustion chamber, creating a vortex to fit the shape of the piston head cavity DIs head of the piston cavity center.
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so basically we are getting OEM ITBs...lol

+Water-cooled EGR with a collector..might also be adopted into the FA201. Although I don't really see how this is a benefit for greater emissions.

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+Talks of Denso being switched out next year in favor of Hitachi DI injection drivers ECU and Hitachi injectors with a dual spray pattern.

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While many of these things have already made its way into the current Legacy GT DIT Featuring a DI only FA20 Twin Scroll Turbo, I don't hear anything about the actual turbo itself being implemented into the BRZ platform. So we are still less likely to see this under our hoods from the factory.

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So what can we expect? More power? No I don't believe so. but i do expect plenty of improvements in our current power band output, and economy. It is unclear if the Toyota/Scion twin will also be having next year's changes, but given their contract and also being built at the same plant...the odds are very high that Toyota/Scion will also have these changes as well.

Thoughts, Comments, and Concerns are welcome.

Bitching and moaning will not tolerated in this particular thread.

-Josh
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:27 PM   #2
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So this kind of goes with the early rumors about there being improvements every year to this platform engine wise.....
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:31 PM   #3
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Interesting... TGVs are usually the first thing people remove on a WRX
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:54 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Spaceywilly View Post
Interesting... TGVs are usually the first thing people remove on a WRX
Typed the words right off my finger tips...
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Old 06-06-2012, 08:13 PM   #5
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I have mixed feelings about the TVG. On the one hand better power/torque curves are always welcome but on the other it adds complexity and is one more variable that car enthusiasts have to deal with, which is a turn off. We want a greater ability to modify the car ourselves and this ability is slowly eroding. If the TVG system makes it harder to tune or realize Hp gains it may end up being a negative for the car and the brand. This car is already loved not only because it handles well but because its a simple design that appeals to car enthusiasts in a similar way as the Honda B or K engine. Perhaps a more elegant and simple solution could be found that does not include valves in the intake plenum. If the TVG system doesn't get in the way of aftermarket support or possibilities thereof then I am all for it. Either way, I watch with excitement to see how this engine will evolve.
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Old 06-06-2012, 08:52 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahausheer View Post
I have mixed feelings about the TVG. On the one hand better power/torque curves are always welcome but on the other it adds complexity and is one more variable that car enthusiasts have to deal with, which is a turn off. We want a greater ability to modify the car ourselves and this ability is slowly eroding. If the TVG system makes it harder to tune or realize Hp gains it may end up being a negative for the car and the brand. This car is already loved not only because it handles well but because its a simple design that appeals to car enthusiasts in a similar way as the Honda B or K engine. Perhaps a more elegant and simple solution could be found that does not include valves in the intake plenum. If the TVG system doesn't get in the way of aftermarket support or possibilities thereof then I am all for it. Either way, I watch with excitement to see how this engine will evolve.
Same can be said about DI itself being anti-enthusiast in nature. TVG may not have been the best solution for WRX owners. But it really makes me question about it in this application.

TVG is mainly used in the past as a primary purpose to restrict air flow, during idle resulting in reduced emissions. But with DI in place and a weak stratified charge injection at idle, the idle emissions and fuel consumption has already made signficant improvements. Making TVG redundant...

TVG was really counter-productive in WRX with already horrible manifold AITs from the factory being turbo and experiencing noticeable heat soak. Does the FA20 also suffer from the same AITs with its phleonic resin compound intake manifold and not experiencing hot intake charges?

Why couldnt subaru use variable intake lengths if they were really targeting smoother TQ charcteristics via intake accoustic tuning? Rather than go TVG..

FA20DIT....wheres the dip? look at that graph...is that the same FA20 with just a turbo? This is really impressive on a non-STI turbo subaru engine and with a incredibly low emissions table compared to the EJ.


With DI in place, we really ultimately require less air to make power per stroke, vs the ratio of air+port fuel where we pretty much guess based on tailpipe AFRs.
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Old 06-06-2012, 08:56 PM   #7
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I dunno how much TGVs hurt flow at high rpm, but if they work well this is a better way to do it than D4-S with a compromised port for low speed stability. arghx7 said that the ports are likely a compromise between tumble and flow, so I think gains in flow aren't really going to happen on the current engine. WingsofWar, TVG is absolutely not redundant! Stratified charge can only be used in a very narrow set of circumstances, TVG is what's going to get you great low end torque without killing high end power completely.

Cooled EGR is a good thing for fuel economy at part load, although very high AFR lean burn is probably better :P

Good to see them making improvements.
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Old 06-06-2012, 09:24 PM   #8
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Also TGV (modern TVIS) and variable length intake systems are not mutually exclusive. However I would prefer a better design for increasing low rpm intake velocity than the TGV setup.

As for the Hitachi injectors, unless it's going only DI, due to Toyota, Denso and Yamaha patents on the D4-S it won't happen. (Assuming no change in business dealings.)

Finally with boost fidling they can create an artificially flat torque curve (ie add boost to fill any dips).
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:05 PM   #9
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Also, variable intake lengths as used in Toyota V6's and many Lexus engines develop amazing torque curves, although I am still learning about the pros and cons of Toyota's TVIS and Subaru's TVG's so I really don't know what I am talking about.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:12 PM   #10
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Quote:
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Interesting... TGVs are usually the first thing people remove on a WRX

Why do people remove the TVG's?
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:15 PM   #11
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fuck, TGVs suck... everything else seems promising
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:17 PM   #12
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Why do people remove the TVG's?
It is only there for cold start emissions. After the engine warms up they just impede airflow and heat up the air. Removing it increases power through the entire power band.

http://www.grimmspeed.com/catalog/pr...products_id=35

Quote:
Customers have seen gains of 15+ whp/wtq. We've also seen third party flowbench tests showing an increase from 330 cfm to 480 cfm!!

On a typical STG 2 setup you are going to realize an increase of 5-10tq/5-8hp in the low end, 10-15tq/8-12hp in the mid range, and 5-10tq/5-8hp at the high end. As you can see in the dyno graph, max gains are going to occur in the mid range.

As far as where the gains occur in the power band, your entire power band is going to see an improvement with our TGV Deletes.
Obviously the FA20 is a different animal, but my suspicion is that these will "fix" the torque dip at the expense of power everywhere else.
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Old 06-07-2012, 12:24 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceywilly View Post
It is only there for cold start emissions. After the engine warms up they just impede airflow and heat up the air. Removing it increases power through the entire power band.

http://www.grimmspeed.com/catalog/pr...products_id=35

Obviously the FA20 is a different animal, but my suspicion is that these will "fix" the torque dip at the expense of power everywhere else.
If the torque improved everywhere, that sounds like the old TGVs were for cold starts, but this sounds like it's to help the direct injectors out at low speed so it could be different.

I guess we'll just have to see, as usual.
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Old 06-07-2012, 12:32 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r View Post
If the torque improved everywhere, that sounds like the old TGVs were for cold starts, but this sounds like it's to help the direct injectors out at low speed so it could be different.

I guess we'll just have to see, as usual.
For reference on the 'old' Toyota motors the IS250 with direct only had TGVs and ACIS (variable length intake tube), but the IS350 with the D4-S has neither.

Did they think the smaller 2.5l V6 needed more help than the 1000cc larger motor?
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