The "Pedal Dance" testing

[cjd]

Originally Posted by Bramick

I'm going to presume your faster with nannies because it's doing the work. Word of advice, learn to drive with them off. Otherwise you're kidding yourself when I comes to driver quality.

Nannies are off, just not pedal dance. I'm slower when I forget to turn them off for sure. I'm not kidding myself, I know there's a lot of work to be done. There's also more testing and, I'm sure, adjusting. Unless EBD is fixing a bad issue (that would be hardware issues to track down) I'm unsure what nannies remain. Given the pedal pressure and how hard the pedal feel was, I'm not sure I wasn't tripping over something else going on. I'll keep experimenting to see what I can learn.

C

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by cjd

Tried this yesterday at an AutoX and was immediately slower, unable to stop properly. I'm unsure if I'm actually relying on abs (though it would have to be far more subtle than it is when I know I've tripped it) or something else is going on. I did get the stopping action I expected occasionally with the pedal dance, and no tire noise, suggesting they weren't locked up.

I'll give it a try without abs next event and see how that changes things.

Originally Posted by cjd

Nannies are off, just not pedal dance. I'm slower when I forget to turn them off for sure. I'm not kidding myself, I know there's a lot of work to be done. There's also more testing and, I'm sure, adjusting. Unless EBD is fixing a bad issue (that would be hardware issues to track down) I'm unsure what nannies remain. Given the pedal pressure and how hard the pedal feel was, I'm not sure I wasn't tripping over something else going on. I'll keep experimenting to see what I can learn.

C

I tried it at an event and was slower too. Definitely hit ice mode and blew at least two braking points on seperate runs, immediately switched back.

With it in regular mode the car is more forgiving to stabbing the pedal for whatever reason, with diagnostic brake/pedal/dance mode the car will punish you for not being smooth on the brakes or just plain old freak out. ABS is still active in pedal/brake dance mode, it just seems to give way to ice mode much more readily. I'm not exactly in a position to go through and investigate like others around here.

http://www.sccaforums.com/forums/aft/392890

Try it at a Test and Tune event, a ideally with a skidpad so you can take the same two corners 20x in a row, make the change and then immediately do it another 20x times. When I did that it was a lightbulb, "Oh, THAT'S trail braking!" because with the car in regular TC off mode it certainly tries it's best to keep you braking in a straight line.

To me it's a shift in how I brake, just because I CAN brake harder, doesn't mean I should, I really have to be more delicate in my braking application, I can't stab at the brakes anymore, I have to squeeze the pedal. I felt the weight transfer and effects of trail braking before in standard mode (part of that was really attacking the brakes), but there's so much more of it in diagnostic mode. I overdid it and lost the backend at least 3x during the first skidpad session with it off (to cut myself some slack and garner a bit of sympathy I was trying to figure out left foot braking at the same time), by the end of the day it felt like on demand rotation under braking.

It really is a 4th/5th mode in the traction control and changes how you step up to the limits of traction. Getting the most out of the car with TC on is very different than with TC off, and it's different again without EBD.

Originally Posted by GeorgeJFrick

Also interesting we're apparently bad drivers if we don't do the pedal dance, lol.

I balked at that too about a year ago, but didn't say anything (or maybe I did, it's probably in this thread) because academically speaking if what's going on here is correct, that's not a ridiculous statement.

It's definitely the case that EBD limits the trail braking potential of the 86 in standard modes. Effective and masterful use of the brake pedal is critical in being deemed a skilled driver, no argument can be made against that. Without using the trail braking available you're leaving speed on the table, plain and simple, that was established in racecars 40+ years ago by Jackie Stewart and Mark Donohue, earlier in motorbikes I believe, and it's the standard today. The best way to get faster is to raise your minimum speed in the corner, not brake later or accelerate harder.

'Bad driver' is a combative phrase, those not capable of utilizing the brake dance still have more to learn, plain and simple. I'd bet there's some very fast guys out there who prefer not using it but understand it's potential, but I have a hunch the guys that do use it will come out on top all else being equal.

I am still miles away from being able to parade myself up as an example, but sometimes the language barrier between the extremely skilled and the intermediates who are hunting for the speed is too great, let's build a bridge together.

[Beastronix]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I tried it at an event and was slower too. Definitely hit ice mode and blew at least two braking points on seperate runs, immediately switched back.

With it in regular mode the car is more forgiving to stabbing the pedal for whatever reason, with diagnostic brake/pedal/dance mode the car will punish you for not being smooth on the brakes or just plain old freak out. ABS is still active in pedal/brake dance mode, it just seems to give way to ice mode much more readily. I'm not exactly in a position to go through and investigate like others around here.

http://www.sccaforums.com/forums/aft/392890

Try it at a Test and Tune event, a ideally with a skidpad so you can take the same two corners 20x in a row, make the change and then immediately do it another 20x times. When I did that it was a lightbulb, "Oh, THAT'S trail braking!" because with the car in regular TC off mode it certainly tries it's best to keep you braking in a straight line.

To me it's a shift in how I brake, just because I CAN brake harder, doesn't mean I should, I really have to be more delicate in my braking application, I can't stab at the brakes anymore, I have to squeeze the pedal. I felt the weight transfer and effects of trail braking before in standard mode (part of that was really attacking the brakes), but there's so much more of it in diagnostic mode. I overdid it and lost the backend at least 3x during the first skidpad session with it off (to cut myself some slack and garner a bit of sympathy I was trying to figure out left foot braking at the same time), by the end of the day it felt like on demand rotation under braking.

It really is a 4th/5th mode in the traction control and changes how you step up to the limits of traction. Getting the most out of the car with TC on is very different than with TC off, and it's different again without EBD.



I balked at that too about a year ago, but didn't say anything (or maybe I did, it's probably in this thread) because academically speaking if what's going on here is correct, that's not a ridiculous statement.

It's definitely the case that EBD limits the trail braking potential of the 86 in standard modes. Effective and masterful use of the brake pedal is critical in being deemed a skilled driver, no argument can be made against that. Without using the trail braking available you're leaving speed on the table, plain and simple, that was established in racecars 40+ years ago by Jackie Stewart and Mark Donohue, earlier in motorbikes I believe, and it's the standard today. The best way to get faster is to raise your minimum speed in the corner, not brake later or accelerate harder.

Well described experience. It's interesting that you're hitting ice mode so easily... Do you left foot brake or move very quickly back and forth from gas to brake maybe? Ice mode is usually at a higher risk with left foot braking or drivers in the habit of bouncing pedal to pedal with a quick foot.

If nothing gives you might want to try a few runs with ABS disabled. Should be able to stab the pedal all you want then and for your case would be safer if you're hitting ice mode so frequently.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Beastronix

Well described experience. It's interesting that you're hitting ice mode so easily... Do you left foot brake or move very quickly back and forth from gas to brake maybe? Ice mode is usually at a higher risk with left foot braking or drivers in the habit of bouncing pedal to pedal with a quick foot.

If nothing gives you might want to try a few runs with ABS disabled. Should be able to stab the pedal all you want then and for your case would be safer if you're hitting ice mode so frequently.

Both a quick foot and left foot braking.

The only way to disable the abs is to pull the fuse to my knowledge (and budget) which is illegal for street classes in SCCA. Worth an experiment for sure, but it wasn't a problem for me after experimenting with the diagnostic mode and getting comfortable with it at the test n tune, seat time can fix many many problems that the impatient use as excuses to spend money.

[Beastronix]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Both a quick foot and left foot braking.

The only way to disable the abs is to pull the fuse to my knowledge (and budget) which is illegal for street classes in SCCA. Worth an experiment for sure, but it wasn't a problem for me after experimenting with the diagnostic mode and getting comfortable with it at the test n tune, seat time can fix many many problems that the impatient use as excuses to spend money.

If you were able to adjust that's great, proper learning in my opinion!

[GeorgeJFrick]

I am eagerly awaiting @2superblus review of this item.

I use an Aim SoloDL for data capture via obd port; has anyone used the pass thru with success?

[Beastronix]

Originally Posted by GeorgeJFrick

I am eagerly awaiting @2superblus review of this item.

I use an Aim SoloDL for data capture via obd port; has anyone used the pass thru with success?

If you're running the SoloDL you'll just need to make sure you get the ACC harness. Avoids the 86Nanny + SoloDL both from pulling power from the OBDII circuit (will pop the OBD fuse).

Communication wise everything will work perfectly fine. The pass-thru is a full 16pin which just acts as an extension for any other devices you want to use. The 86Nanny will run at communication spec for these cars and doesn't spam the network causing any error frames for your other devices. It simply joins the network & talks exactly as the rest of the nodes in the car do.

Bart should have something up soon.

[cjd]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Both a quick foot and left foot braking.

The only way to disable the abs is to pull the fuse to my knowledge (and budget) which is illegal for street classes in SCCA. Worth an experiment for sure, but it wasn't a problem for me after experimenting with the diagnostic mode and getting comfortable with it at the test n tune, seat time can fix many many problems that the impatient use as excuses to spend money.

86Nanny can if you get the version with it, and it's less that a swsybar in cost. That doesn't mean though should go get one - learning the tricks to work with just PD makes tons of sense too, but pulling the fuse isn't the only way to disable ABS.

C

[cjd]

Originally Posted by GeorgeJFrick

I am eagerly awaiting @2superblus review of this item.

I use an Aim SoloDL for data capture via obd port; has anyone used the pass thru with success?

I have the accessory harness, if you felt like trying the Aim in a different car to be 100% sure.

[2superblus]

I am looking to install it either tonight or this weekend. You will know how it goes next weekend.

[Blokatos]

Originally Posted by xwd

EBD is used to make sure wheels do not lock up under braking and also works with the VSC system. Instead of having a prop valve setting F/R bias the system can figure out how much force is needed at each wheel.

Nope, EBD is used to properly distribute brake pressure between axles during braking. Initially, the weight is more evenly spread front and rear but as the braking progresses, load is transfered to the front so EBD has to modulate the pressure accordingly to compensate for this and make the use of brake pressure more efficient.
EBD DOES NOT funtction at each wheel, ABS does this...

[Blokatos]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Part of the problem on the factory ecu is that it's slow to respond to throttle pedal input, especially at throttle lift off. I personally have issues with and oem ecus as I transition extremely fast from throttle to brake and because I'm on the brake before the throttle shuts, there is no vacuum assist from the brake booster and you get a rock hard pedal initially.

[Blokatos]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Sorry guys what I'm talking about with pedal overlap is not "ice mode." It's simply the DBW throttle closing too slowly therefore delaying engine vacuum and subsequently brake booster assist. Pump the brake pedal while the engine is running, feels spongy with lots of travel, now engine off, pump the brake, and now it will be rock hard.

So if you transition from throttle to brake fast enough, you will be greated with that rock hard pedal and no vacuum assist momentarily. The brake booster is a mechanical device so you can't trick it.

"Ice Mode" has something to do with the ABS computer programming in response to the wheel speed data. I believe it's a response to excessive ABS intervention so to further reduce potential lock up its reducing line pressure via the ABS pump.

This is proof that under 18 should not be allowed to use a PC or the Internet...

[CCJ]

Originally Posted by Blokatos

This is proof that under 18 should not be allowed to use a PC or the Internet...

lolz. Says the guy that can't figure out how to use multiquote.

I've done two autox events so far in my C-street 2013 FR-S both doing the pedal dance. I have yet to experience any of the negative side effects. As for the "good driver/bad driver" bs, who cares what the guy next to you is doing? I tend to focus on things I can control.