FRS vs Camaro Handling

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

But you said before that you thought a modified 86 would be faster?





Considering the drivers are equal, a boosted fa20 on OEM internals is no match for a healthy LT1 and magnetic shocks in my opinion.





A huge difference is that the Camaro has a manual transmission, and a great NA V8 and not a TT V6. Probably a lot more responsive and engaging.

What I said was that with 20K to spend on a twin you could get close 400whp on E 85, good coils and 275 rcomps and that a twin with those stats would beat a stock ss 1le...

Jaden

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by glamcem

bingo, Healthy is the keyword here that's what many people are struggling to understand; real world experience will be very different than what it looks on the paper. In this case, it doesn't even look close (referring to Rotrex BRZ to LT1 dynosheet). On a side note, I spent a lot more on Rotrex build BRZ than a stock 1LE . Even if I spent more to make more power (forged internals, bigger blower, E85..etc) It wouldn't be able to match that power gap.

now back to topic, "handling", there is a structural differences between two cars and unlike matching "power/weight" ratio it is not easy to make up for that difference by adding stickier tires, bushings/ sways/braces/, aero,
in the hands of a professional driver after the above mods a twin might be able to match a stock 1LE but of course it's not apples to apples at that point

If you spent more than 20K to modify a twin with the stats you stated, then you didn't do the work yourself and or got ripped off royally.

I never said that your average person wouldn't be better off buying an ss 1le if they want performance per dollar.

Jaden

p.s. If you did spend more on making that 270 whp twin than a stock ss 1le than you were good to just buy a camaro then.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by Jaden

a twin with those stats would beat a stock ss 1le...

Would it though?


And at the end of the day, the Camaro still has a warranty and plenty of available potential considering it's stock.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Would it though?


And at the end of the day, the Camaro still has a warranty and plenty of available potential considering it's stock.

You want to bet on it? Let's find a twin with more than 390 whp, decent coils and 275 rcomps all around and get it done. I'll put a K on the twin with the same driver as a stock ss 1le to win in a timecomp around a decently winding track.

Jaden

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

And at the end of the day, the Camaro still has a warranty and plenty of available potential considering it's stock.

p.s. that's why I said in one of my posts that stating that it's a better performer per dollar requires copious amounts of qualification

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by Jaden

I brought logic, not feelings. If you show me the tests of what I stated and the twin loses with the same driver, I would absolutely state that the twin is inferior...
I will always point out when illogical arguments are taking place sir, and that is precisely what you have done in this thread.


Jaden

We did already. You just "don't give a shit"

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

The Nissan GTR is a pig, but I heard it makes you feel like a superstar when you're behind the wheel. Just because a car is bigger and heavier doesn't mean it's more difficult to control necessarily.


I need to start actually driving some of these cars.

Yes the GTR is a pig (heavy), but also a completely different story. They played very clever with the weight distribution and mounted the transmission and transfer case in the rear of the chassis. It is also AWD which helps a lot when you have lots of power and you want a progressive and easier to drive car.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by glamcem

We did already. You just "don't give a shit"

You can't test a 260 hp twin against a 400 hp car on a TRACK and say that the 400 hp car HANDLES better because it was FASTER around the track...

That is NOT a valid test for handling.

That you can't seem to grasp that means that you just don't "give a shit" I absolutely give a shit when people try and use illogical arguments, or I'd just let you spout your idiocy and not post.

Jaden

p.s. besides that post you quoted of me said the tests 'I' stated. Which would require a 400 hp twin with 275 rcomps and decent coils...get back to me when you test that.

[Denver1LE]

Originally Posted by Jaden

You can't test a 260 hp twin against a 400 hp car on a TRACK and say that the 400 hp car HANDLES better because it was FASTER around the track...

That is NOT a valid test for handling.

That you can't seem to grasp that means that you just don't "give a shit" I absolutely give a shit when people try and use illogical arguments, or I'd just let you spout your idiocy and not post.

Jaden

p.s. besides that post you quoted of me said the tests 'I' stated. Which would require a 400 hp twin with 275 rcomps and decent coils...get back to me when you test that.

MotorTrend utilizes a special set of tests, as you will note in the first couple of pages of this thread, that tests a car's handling abilities - do you refute these data?

Post #19

Look, the BRZ / 86 is a great car, but the context of the post, and actually I'll add to the context as I am the one the OP referred to in post #1, is this: "The BRZ / 86 will out handle the 1LE all day long".

So...how would two guys go about finding out the validity of such a statement?

outside of Motor Trend's objective data, Glamcem has been kind enough to lend his experience as an 86 owner (among others) to shed some light on the subject, and I think he's done so in a meaningful way that doesn't detract from the greatness of the BRZ / 86.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Jaden

You want to bet on it? Let's find a twin with more than 390 whp, decent coils and 275 rcomps all around and get it done. I'll put a K on the twin with the same driver as a stock ss 1le to win in a timecomp around a decently winding track.

Jaden

Issue is that the majority of tracks are not windy enough. I've seen many tracks and most of them have a couple of big straight parts that will favor the stronger cars. It is a kind of win-win situation of car manufacturers and track designers to convince buyers that they need a stronger car.

The only track I like A LOT is the following:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6NqWm7yMvs"]Comparison: Ford Focus RS v Subaru WRX STI v Volkswagen Golf R Track Test | CarAdvice - YouTube[/ame]

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by Denver1LE

MotorTrend utilizes a special set of tests, as you will note in the first couple of pages of this thread, that tests a cars handling abilities - do you refute these data?

He doesn't seem to care about it and rather stick to his fanboyism.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Issue is that the majority of tracks are not windy enough. I've seen many tracks and most of them have a couple of big straight parts that will favor the stronger cars. It is a kind of win-win situation of manufacturers and track designers ...

Pulled up the last local SCCA event results, which I didn't attend so no idea if conditions had an affect, but here they are:
AS prepp'd '17 SS 1LE: 48.25s
Top DS FR-S: 48.49
Top 3 STX FR-S: 47.58, 47.65, 48.15

DS '16 Camaro 2.0T - 47.4

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by Twinz

I get to drive a lot of these bigger, more powerful cars at the limit on various autocross courses. Many of them have impressed me but only because of how well they manage their heft.

A dancing elephant can be both powerful and impressive, but an elephant that can dance is still an elephant.

I understand why people are drawn to the formula, but numbers fail to convey the different driving experience to be had between cars that try to use physics as a dance partner and cars that try to beat physics into submission.

Not sure, "on the limit" and, "auto cross course" can be used in the same sentence.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Denver1LE

MotorTrend utilizes a special set of tests, as you will note in the first couple of pages of this thread, that tests a car's handling abilities - do you refute these data?

Post #19

Look, the BRZ / 86 is a great car, but the context of the post, and actually I'll add to the context as I am the one the OP referred to in post #1, is this: "The BRZ / 86 will out handle the 1LE all day long".

So...how would two guys go about finding out the validity of such a statement?

outside of Motor Trend's objective data, Glamcem has been kind enough to lend his experience as an 86 owner (among others) to shed some light on the subject, and I think he's done so in a meaningful way that doesn't detract from the greatness of the BRZ / 86.

I do NOT refute those tests, nor did I claim anything that those tests countermand.

A stock 86 does not appear to out handle a stock ss 1le.

dollar for dollar up to the cost of a stock ss 1le, I do not believe an ss 1le can outperform an 86 in ANY way depending on who's spending the money to modify the 86.

Anyone can spend a butt load of money and not get much performance gain, that isn't the same thing as what I'm stating though.

Jaden

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Issue is that the majority of tracks are not windy enough. I've seen many tracks and most of them have a couple of big straight parts that will favor the stronger cars. It is a kind of win-win situation of car manufacturers and track designers to convince buyers that they need a stronger car.

The only track I like A LOT is the following:

The power to weight ratio on an 86 with 390 whp is going to be higher than the camaro...so the straights will favor the 86 also.

Jaden