FRS vs Camaro Handling

[strat61caster]

@glamcem I'm curious and I don't mean to offend, but I just got around to watching your track vids (the ones at RMP) and I can't help but wonder if you've ever had anyone else quick drive your BRZ to compare yourself to them?

The reason I ask is that from the videos, both cars perform the exact same except for horsepower, you carry about the same amount of speed through every corner, so I can totally understand your sentiment that the Camaro handles just as well as the 86.

I can't help but wonder if you've got a mental block that prevented you from maxing out the capabilities of your 86, I wonder if that setup was capable of higher mid-corner speeds than what you have in your videos. Otherwise it's downright remarkable that the Camaro and BRZ are so extremely close in cornering capability, like within 2-5 mph through every single corner until the power comes on.

I only ask because I have 100% experienced this myself and that's where I'm at in my driving talent, if you put me in one car with street tires around a track, eventually I'll hit a wall where I think 'this is all I can do' and if you put me in a car that objectively handles better (better tires, suspension, lighter, whatever), I likely wouldn't significantly increase my mid-corner speeds because I still have that mental block of "oh I can only carry 40 mph through there" even though it's not a conscious decision.


You've been downright awesome coming back and posting your experiences in this thread, I've enjoyed reading your posts. I'm not trying to bag on the Camaro or your talent, I just found it incredible how similar they corner and can't help but wonder if it's the driver not the car.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Any comparison is fair, even apples and oranges, in the right context.

For example, in the area of buying juices comparing apple and orange would be very fair.

Same with cars, if you are considering any two cars for a specific purpose (track car, DD, value for the dollar) any two cars are fair game.

The list I make when I go to buy a new car would probably drive you nuts because I consider all kinds of makes/models for the exact same purpose. I also compared cross types (trucks, cars, SUVs). Price is a factor, but not the only factor. I have a set budget and shop within that. However, since I'm willing to shop used and new, I can shop within a pretty wide range.

So, it is very possible to shop a FRS, a Camaro and a Vette (as I gave in the example above) because they can all be bought in the same price range if newness is just another factor considered.

Of course it is fair game, but that doesn't mean it is a valid argument to use.

If you say car a handles better than car b, car a goes faster around a track.

That is not valid if car a has more power.

If you say, car a is a better performing car than car b, car a goes faster around a track.

That IS a valid argument.

The op started with my friend bought an ss 1le and says it handles better than my frs.

Then it got into a modified frs STILL doesn't handle better than an ss 1le, then it got to it's still better to buy a ss 1le for performance.

The original statement may be true, the ss 1le does handle better than a stock twin.

The second statement of it being better to just buy an ss 1le, is not a true statement. It is subjective and requires copious amounts of qualification.

Are you dealing on a total budget of $45,000? Are you a capable mechanic/fabricator?
Are you a tuner or are you capable of tuning? What type of driving do you want to do? Will you be tracking it? What type of tracking?

The original statement is of course true. A brand new SS 1le DOES handle better than a brand new FRS, that's IF the ops frs is stock.

Can he throw some wheels and rcomps on it and have it handle better than the SS 1LE, that remains to be seen.

What size rcomps and wheels? The fact that a poster had a slightly modified twin with 260whp and 245 rcomps and it couldn't beat it around a track does NOT answer that question.

To say it does is comparing apples and oranges in a context that has no logically valid basis.

Jaden

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by Jaden

I do have a job and work to do, it takes time to read 11 pages, but I still haven't seen a mention of what coils what size R comps he used to barely beat a miata...I saw the 278 hp, which with 20K to spend to hit the same spending as a 1LE SS is really low.

You can get decent coils, 275 rcomps with wheels and be making close to 400 on E85 with 20K to spend and I'm sorry, I don't give a shit about what anyone says, there's no fucking way that a twin with that is going to lose around a track to a stock ss 1le...ain't gonna happen, unless they are in desperate need of a driver mod.

Jaden

You actually summarized your problem very good. It doesn't matter whatever has been discussed in this very thread and no matter what the data proven facts won't change your "beliefs"
I couldn't have said it better :

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Of course it is fair game, but that doesn't mean it is a valid argument to use.

If you say car a handles better than car b, car a goes faster around a track.

That is not valid if car a has more power.

If you say, car a is a better performing car than car b, car a goes faster around a track.

That IS a valid argument.

The op started with my friend bought an ss 1le and says it handles better than my frs.

Then it got into a modified frs STILL doesn't handle better than an ss 1le, then it got to it's still better to buy a ss 1le for performance.

The original statement may be true, the ss 1le does handle better than a stock twin.

The second statement of it being better to just buy an ss 1le, is not a true statement. It is subjective and requires copious amounts of qualification.

Are you dealing on a total budget of $45,000? Are you a capable mechanic/fabricator?
Are you a tuner or are you capable of tuning? What type of driving do you want to do? Will you be tracking it? What type of tracking?

The original statement is of course true. A brand new SS 1le DOES handle better than a brand new FRS, that's IF the ops frs is stock.

Can he throw some wheels and rcomps on it and have it handle better than the SS 1LE, that remains to be seen.

What size rcomps and wheels? The fact that a poster had a slightly modified twin with 260whp and 245 rcomps and it couldn't beat it around a track does NOT answer that question.

To say it does is comparing apples and oranges in a context that has no logically valid basis.

Jaden

I'm just stating this, and don't take offense....but you could have the two cars right next to each other making the same power, same torque curve, on same wheels and tires, and everything else equal..... If the twin lost, I feel like there would be something you'd be able to find wrong with the testing.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

I'm just stating this, and don't take offense....but you could have the two cars right next to each other making the same power, same torque curve, on same wheels and tires, and everything else equal..... If the twin lost, I feel like there would be something you'd be able to find wrong with the testing.

Not if it was the same driver... however, if the opposite were true, would you be willing to admit the twin was superior???

Lots of haters who don't drive twins on this site...

Jaden

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by glamcem

You actually summarized your problem very good. It doesn't matter whatever has been discussed in this very thread and no matter what the data proven facts won't change your "beliefs"
I couldn't have said it better :

I brought logic, not feelings. If you show me the tests of what I stated and the twin loses with the same driver, I would absolutely state that the twin is inferior...
I will always point out when illogical arguments are taking place sir, and that is precisely what you have done in this thread.


Jaden

[Twinz]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

The point is people automatically think the GTR has good handling, while they do not think that of the Camaro.

My biggest gripe with the GTR is that the technology is too good.

When I get out of a GTR, I feel like any random driver that gets in it can do everything I just did. I know the driver still matters, but from the driver's seat, the car feels like it's the hero and I'm just the guy that happens to be in the driver's seat at the moment.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by Jaden

The question is HANDLING, not track times.

But you said before that you thought a modified 86 would be faster?

Originally Posted by Jaden

Show me the proof, cause I don't believe for one minute that a twin with large R comps and coils that is boosted is slower around a track than a stock ss 1LE...

Considering the drivers are equal, a boosted fa20 on OEM internals is no match for a healthy LT1 and magnetic shocks in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Twinz

My biggest gripe with the GTR is that the technology is too good.

When I get out of a GTR, I feel like any random driver that gets in it can do everything I just did. I know the driver still matters, but from the driver's seat, the car feels like it's the hero and I'm just the guy that happens to be in the driver's seat at the moment.

A huge difference is that the Camaro has a manual transmission, and a great NA V8 and not a TT V6. Probably a lot more responsive and engaging.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Not if it was the same driver... however, if the opposite were true, would you be willing to admit the twin was superior???

Lots of haters who don't drive twins on this site...

Jaden

Of course I would. It also isn't hate. This car is a bargain, for what it is. The 1LE is a bargain for what it is. To get the twin to beat the 1LE would not be a bargain.




I guess I don't have a twin, lol.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

A boosted fa20 on stock internals is no match for a healthy LT1 in my opinion.

bingo, Healthy is the keyword here that's what many people are struggling to understand; real world experience will be very different than what it looks on the paper. In this case, it doesn't even look close (referring to Rotrex BRZ to LT1 dynosheet). On a side note, I spent a lot more on Rotrex build BRZ than a stock 1LE . Even if I spent more to make more power (forged internals, bigger blower, E85..etc) It wouldn't be able to match that power gap.

now back to topic, "handling", there is a structural differences between two cars and unlike matching "power/weight" ratio it is not easy to make up for that difference by adding stickier tires, bushings/ sways/braces/, aero,
in the hands of a professional driver after the above mods a twin might be able to match a stock 1LE but of course it's not apples to apples at that point

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by Twinz

My biggest gripe with the GTR is that the technology is too good.

When I get out of a GTR, I feel like any random driver that gets in it can do everything I just did. I know the driver still matters, but from the driver's seat, the car feels like it's the hero and I'm just the guy that happens to be in the driver's seat at the moment.

I've only rode in the backseat of one. It was pretty awesome from my perspective, lol. I got to drive one in and out of a dealership showroom one time though. So for that 1-2 MPH I got it up to I felt heroic.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by glamcem

bingo, Healthy is the keyword here that's what many people are struggling to understand; real world experience will be very different than what it looks on the paper. In this case, it doesn't even look close (referring to Rotrex BRZ to LT1 dynosheet). On a side note, I spent a lot more than a 1LE than my Rotrex build BRZ. Even if I spent more to make more power (forged internals, bigger blower, E85..etc) It wouldn't be able to match that power gap.

now back to topic, "handling", there is a structural differences between two cars and unlike matching "power/weight" ratio it is not easy to make up for that difference by adding stickier tires, bushings/ sways/braces/, aero,
in the hands of a professional driver after the above mods a twin might be able to match a stock 1LE but of course it's not apples to apples at that point

What tire sizes do 1LEs even come with stock? They're in the 3xx correct?

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

What tire sizes do 1LEs even come with stock? They're in the 3xx correct?

285/30/20 Fronts
305/30/20 Rears

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Of course it is fair game, but that doesn't mean it is a valid argument to use......

Are you dealing on a total budget of $45,000?

A lot of people get stuck on the budget as the primary limiting factor, which to me is not as big a deal. For the price of a new FRS I can buy lots of cars that will out-perform it, they just aren't new.

For example, you can pick up a C7 Vette all day long for $45,000. You can get a 2004 Z06 for the price of a new Toyota 86. That's a lot of catching up to do.