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Old 10-22-2013, 06:00 PM   #99
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Much appreciated @DarkSunrise

Those were concept cars, nothing matters until they release a production ready model otherwise I'd be driving a 3-rotor Mazda shown off in the Furai because that was in the concept. Concepts aren't reality, and as shown by the articles I posted Ford and Mazda were working on lighter iterations even if the 86 never became a reality.

Just because Toyobaru struck first doesn't mean they're dictating other people's designs.

Edit: As posted elsewhere in this thread you can assume that a new car has to go through ~5-7 years of development time, if that was the case then the new lighter 86 "influenced" designs would be coming out in 2016 when we're looking at the next Miata and Mustang being showroom ready in 2014, less than three years after the 86 became a reality.
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Old 10-22-2013, 06:05 PM   #100
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Here's an article from 2009 about the first FT-86 concept, no mention of lightweight focus, only low C.G. and good handling:
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/toy...ept-auto-shows

Here's an article from 2011:
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/toy...i-concept-news

Again no mention of lightweight although it is compared to the 370Z in terms of overall dimensions and power (~200 horses). Early speculation was anywhere from 2500 lbs up to 3300 lbs, there were only rumors.

e.g.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2286
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1338

Real specifications were released later in 2011 when production models were shown in November:
http://www.carscoops.com/2011/11/new...ive-coupe.html

A full year after the articles I posted above and you chose not to read twice.

The 86 is NOT a driving trend for lighter cars, it is following the curve like everyone else. Based on the speculation I posted above from this forum in 2011 you could argue that the 86 was aiming for 'bloated' NC Miata and missed it's target by many people's standards.
Try 2007-2008.

I know you're wrong because I was on club4AG when Tada-san asked for initial input about an AE86 successor. I won't comment about my posts but the consensus was to shoot for a boxer engine or low CoG RWD solution and under 2500lbs. You can ask Moto-Mike about when Tada first put up the public feeler for 86 project. This was public, not including private development work already done. I'm not sure if that original thread was killed off.

http://forum.jdmstyletuning.com/show...quot-successor

"The site's founder, Moto Miwa, has been in contact with one of the chief engineers tasked by Toyota to begin developing the oft-rumored sports car that's been making the rounds on the Web. The unnamed engineer worked on the original AE86 Corolla, along with a host of other projects including the 2nd generation Prius. While Toyota's ubiquitous hybrid isn't what anyone would consider sporty, the man behind its development, who's now working on the coupe, is apparently quite the petrolhead.

In preparation for a meeting with Toyota's engineer, Miwa asked the Club4AG crew with what they want the new coupe to come equipped. Naturally, the consensus involved repeated pleas for something lightweight, rear-wheel-drive, a DOHC four-cylinder that trades big power for responsiveness, and a chassis and engine that's designed for modification."

Mazda and Ford are still more than 2-3 years behind that curve assuming they release on time in 2014/15.
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Old 10-22-2013, 06:19 PM   #101
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Much appreciated @DarkSunrise

Just because Toyobaru struck first doesn't mean they're dictating other people's designs.
So the fact that Nissan, Honda, Chevy and others have stated they are contemplating GT86 competitors means nothing. Ford dropping weight and size to be more in line w/ the 86 as a competitor is just coincidence?

Guarantee the next Genesis coupe will try to shed weight too. I don't see how all these events taking place after the development and release of the 86 are just coincidence to you when they could have done these same things and been first before the 86 by your logic. But not one of them did that. Not one.
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Old 10-22-2013, 06:25 PM   #102
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Mazda and Ford are still more than 2-3 years behind that curve assuming they release on time in 2014/15.
Ah here's a point we can actually talk about. I appreciate your information, I didn't know about that.

Is 2-3 years difference in development cycle really influential in determining "direction of the industry"? When the fruits of that labor are another 2-4 years after that and you only have rumors to go off of when building a 'competing' model? The 86 concept could have died AFTER Ford and Mazda began developing their next gen and past the point of no return based on the timeline we agree on (e.g. 86 got shelved in early 2011).

Claiming the 86 is the sole reason that the next generation of sports cars is lighter is just stroking e-peen, they would be lighter regardless of the 86.

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So the fact that Nissan, Honda, Chevy and others have stated they are contemplating GT86 competitors means nothing. Ford dropping weight and size to be more in line w/ the 86 as a competitor is just coincidence?

Guarantee the next Genesis coupe will try to shed weight too. I don't see how all these events taking place after the development and release of the 86 are just coincidence to you when they could have done these same things and been first before the 86 by your logic. But not one of them did that. Not one.
The 86 is the current benchmark for those cars, no argument. The 86 is not some radical industry changing car, it's a consequence of ALL cars getting lighter for fuel efficiency, cost, regulations etc. If the 86 didn't exist all those manufacturers would be following the next Mustang/Miata and we'd be on those forums discussing this exactly but in 2015.

If those cars focus on 'feel' instead of numbers e.g. the Genesis and Z (hell even Mustang/Miata) do not measure up performance wise to their predecessors but are more fun to drive I will concede that the 86 has changed the sports car industry. Lighter weight is not enough to shift perceptions and we won't be able to tell until the fat lady sings and the rubber meets the road.
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Old 10-22-2013, 06:43 PM   #103
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Ah here's a point we can actually talk about. I appreciate your information, I didn't know about that.

Is 2-3 years difference in development cycle really influential in determining "direction of the industry"? When the fruits of that labor are another 2-4 years after that and you only have rumors to go off of when building a 'competing' model? The 86 concept could have died AFTER Ford and Mazda began developing their next gen and past the point of no return based on the timeline we agree on (e.g. 86 got shelved in early 2011).

Claiming the 86 is the sole reason that the next generation of sports cars is lighter is just stroking e-peen, they would be lighter regardless of the 86.

Glad I caught this before I submitted:


The 86 is the current benchmark for those cars, no argument. The 86 is not some radical industry changing car, it's a consequence of ALL cars getting lighter for fuel efficiency, cost, regulations etc. If the 86 didn't exist all those manufacturers would be following the next Mustang/Miata and we'd be on those forums discussing this exactly but in 2015.

If those cars focus on 'feel' instead of numbers e.g. the Genesis and Z (hell even Mustang/Miata) do not measure up performance wise to their predecessors but are more fun to drive I will concede that the 86 has changed the sports car industry. Lighter weight is not enough to shift perceptions and we won't be able to tell until the fat lady sings and the rubber meets the road.
We seem to be understanding each other. I'm certainly not one to talk in universal absolutes and wouldn't make a claim that the 86 redefined or revolutionized anything. As I said early on, it did re-remind industry what people wanted and were willing to pay for.

Terms like 'set the industry standard' are examples of verbiage I tend to avoid. That's just nonsense marketing speak. All I can say is that historical developments relative to apparent trends seem to indicate the 86 has had an effect and people (consumers/industry insiders) have taken notice. That's how I see it based on the evidence.

Another thought. Toyota get's so little cred for anything positive related to performance vehicles, I think it's only fair to acknowledge when they do actually do good. If people want them to keep the trend they are undertaking.

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Old 10-22-2013, 07:02 PM   #104
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So the fact that Nissan, Honda, Chevy and others have stated they are contemplating GT86 competitors means nothing. Ford dropping weight and size to be more in line w/ the 86 as a competitor is just coincidence?

Guarantee the next Genesis coupe will try to shed weight too. I don't see how all these events taking place after the development and release of the 86 are just coincidence to you when they could have done these same things and been first before the 86 by your logic. But not one of them did that. Not one.
All automakers have been saying for several years that they are going to make their existing cars smaller/lighter where possible and, where not, they were going to slide in new models.

It's absolutely the ONLY way to comply with extremely strict CAFE requirements as well as ballooning gas prices world-wide. This is particularly important for those automakers for which the cars make up a sizeable chunk of their volume -- like Ford and Chevy -- as they have a large impact on their fleet averages for CAFE than 'niche' cars do.

You don't have 6 different automakers all chomping at the bit to get a piece of market of a 30,000/yr unit car. Sorry, the FT86 ain't selling that well. Nissan's saying stuff because they really have nothing in the market -- a car that sells literally in the dozens per month isn't really something in the market. Honda has nothing in the market, so no surprise they're considering something, theyv'e been saying it for years. And GM has actually been rather vocal that they're not planning on a smaller RWD anytime soon. They've got to get the Camaro shrunk down first (on the smaller/lighter Alpha platform -- planned for over a DECADE now) and get their FWD volumes up to increase their fleet averages before they can afford to sell a RWD car with CAFE.

Per copies of R&T and C&D I've got, Ford has been been officially working on making the Ford lighter/smaller for this generation since the last redesign in 2005. Initial sketches from way back in 2006 even have it looking similar but more angular along with a size decrease -- exactly like what we got today. Details that far back are fairly scarce, as Ford didn't want to significantly detract from sales as Mustang buyers are some of the worst in the business for holding out for the next big thing, plus they were so far out that they had a full 'nother refresh on the horizon that they had to get through first before getting buyers anxious for the real one. So not a lot leaked out after after the next refresh in the 2011 timeframe; except a report in 2009 that the rumored size decrease was locked in.

But Ford didn't change a thing because of the FT86. Ford ain't worried a bit about people who buy a Mustang instead buying a BRZ, anymore than they're worried about them buying a Miata. There's not very much cross-shopping there. Nor is the volume much of a concern. They sell more Mustangs in a bad month than Subaru will sell BRZs in an entire year. They sure as hell aren't completely changing the direction a model takes based on the release of a single moderately-selling vehicle.

Mazda sold more RX-8s in the US in its first year than Subaru and Scion combined have sold FT86s here. I don't think Ford sat back and re-examined the possibility of sticking a Wankel in the Mustang just because something came along that sold moderately well. It (and the 350z at the same time) may have made them question the market's desire for something that actually handled well (and that may have yielded some of the improvements well saw in the later refreshes), but it didn't make them totally re-evaluate the core of their offering. If they had jumped too quickly, they may have found themselves in the same boat as the RX-8 and 350Z which ended up being very short-term blips on the radar, despite both coming out of the gate incredibly rapidly -- not a situation that Ford wants to find itself in with its Mustang. It has to think much, MUCH bigger than short-term blips on the radars of consumer demand.

Currents in the automotive world extend far beyond a single model. Especially one that, frankly, isn't totally blowing it out of the water. The FT86 is a success, no doubt about it. But it's a tiny blip on the sports car radar. The big automakers, particularly when it comes to the Mustang and Camaro which sell in massive volumes, are looking at FAR bigger industry trends than small waves created by a single competitor's model. And the trend towards smaller and lighter in the industry began long before the FT86 was a gleam in Tada-san's eye. First to market is just a hell of a lot easier when you are starting from scratch, and you don't already have a product plan that goes 12+ years out and design work 7+ years out, with tooling costs to ammortize and planned refreshes already in the pipeline to produce.

With the release of the FT86, and the ability to see what consumers like and don't like (there's certainly some common themes in what is not popular with this car), Ford (et al) will certainly take some of that to heart. But they are not out to mimic the car for sure. There's a reason why Ford will try to sell 250,000 Mustangs in the US, while Toyabaru will only try to sell one-tenth that many FT86s. There's a fine line between what makes Ford sell 250,000 Mustangs and what makes Nissan sell 250 370Zs in a month... Who wins and who loses is all about who can really figure out what consumers want. And it's not as easy as just making something small and light -- else Toyota would be the one selling hundreds of thousands of these.

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Old 10-22-2013, 08:20 PM   #105
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All automakers have been saying for several years that they are going to make their existing cars smaller/lighter where possible and, where not, they were going to slide in new models.

And yet they still ALL got heavier.

It's absolutely the ONLY way to comply with extremely strict CAFE requirements as well as ballooning gas prices world-wide. This is particularly important for those automakers for which the cars make up a sizeable chunk of their volume -- like Ford and Chevy -- as they have a large impact on their fleet averages for CAFE than 'niche' cars do.

CAFE and high gas prices have been around for a long, long time as cars kept getting fatter and fatter. Yes the new, stricter 2025 mandate is coming in twelve more years. This still puts these manus as being reactive rather than proactive by comparison. Toyota was proactive to make a lightweight coupe, Ford and others, as you say, are simply being reactive to regs. None of them asked for user or enthusiast input about what drivers wanted except when Ford asked if people wanted a Live rear...

You don't have 6 different automakers all chomping at the bit to get a piece of market of a 30,000/yr unit car. Sorry, the FT86 ain't selling that well.

I never said that but it certainly not to their benefit to have the largest automaker in the world get a rep for fun performance vehicles, a niche others like Nissan, Honda, Chevy, Ford would not like to see happen easily.

Nissan's saying stuff because they really have nothing in the market -- a car that sells literally in the dozens per month isn't really something in the market.

Except a 370Z that they recently slashed tons of dosh off the price and promised to put on a diet coincidentally. I guess slashing prices to closer to the GT86 are from CAFE standards?

Honda has nothing in the market, so no surprise they're considering something, theyv'e been saying it for years.

Yes, they are done w/ robots and airplanes for now. Back to F1.

And GM has actually been rather vocal that they're not planning on a smaller RWD anytime soon.

They seem to waffle on that, could be because of lukewarm response to their 130R. This was just a few months ago from the horse's mouth and specifically called out the GT86.

http://www.carscoops.com/2013/05/che...small-rwd.html

They've got to get the Camaro shrunk down first (on the smaller/lighter Alpha platform -- planned for over a DECADE now) and get their FWD volumes up to increase their fleet averages before they can afford to sell a RWD car with CAFE.

Agreed. This is how it's usually been done. Not focusing on cutting weight from small volume RWD sporty coupes.

Per copies of R&T and C&D I've got, Ford has been been officially working on making the Ford lighter/smaller for this generation since the last redesign in 2005. Initial sketches from way back in 2006 even have it looking similar but more angular along with a size decrease -- exactly like what we got today. Details that far back are fairly scarce,

You don't say. I've never seen anything about actual target dimensions or weights in those. Bear in mind too that when the Stang drops 400lbs of it's current weight, it'll still be 400lbs more than the 86.

as Ford didn't want to significantly detract from sales as Mustang buyers are some of the worst in the business for holding out for the next big thing, plus they were so far out that they had a full 'nother refresh on the horizon that they had to get through first before getting buyers anxious for the real one. So not a lot leaked out after after the next refresh in the 2011 timeframe; except a report in 2009 that the rumored size decrease was locked in.

Correct. Often what happens is teams come up w/ various alternative next gen models to compete with each other, and based on various conditions at the time, management makes a decision they feel is best for their metrics. Actually, the small car variants were usually aimed at market penetration outside the US (Europe/Asia) rather than fear of CAFE. This is what happened w/ the C6 Corvette. The C5 was too wide for roads in those regions. Global marketplace.

But Ford didn't change a thing because of the FT86. Ford ain't worried a bit about people who buy a Mustang instead buying a BRZ.

You don't know that, you are only speculating. Chevy determined the C7's design based on their current shitty youth demographics. I'm pretty sure I've seen my fair share of grey haired Mustang drivers which is a concern for any manufacturer.

anymore than they're worried about them buying a Miata. There's not very much cross-shopping there. Nor is the volume much of a concern. They sell more Mustangs in a bad month than Subaru will sell BRZs in an entire year.

Absolutely true. However, look at the current trends and contexts. Mustang sales have been sliding the wrong direction for awhile (mostly from Camaro sales), the 86 is going the other direction. I personally cross-shopped the Mustang w/ the 86, except it was the 2015 Mustang, not the current one. I also find it odd that Mustang would look to loose 400lbs to compete w/ the 4200lb Camaro when you say lightweight is not a factor. So CAFE again? Not a thought about Camaro sales and competition huh?

They sure as hell aren't completely changing the direction a model takes based on the release of a single moderately-selling vehicle.

Well, they 'locked-in' their decision in 2009 after 4 years as you say. That's after Toyota locked in theirs. Not saying one led to the other but it also doesn't support what you say. I'd say if the Mustang was doing as well as you say, and they fear nothing from anyone, their logical course of action is to forget a change in a direction and stay the course at 3600lbs. Just sell more FWD.

Mazda sold more RX-8s in the US in its first year than Subaru and Scion combined have sold FT86s here. I don't think Ford sat back and re-examined the possibility of sticking a Wankel in the Mustang just because something came along that sold moderately well.

Terrible analogy and you know it. Nobody except Mazda wants anything to do w/ the Wankel and all it's issues.

And the trend towards smaller and lighter in the industry began long before the FT86 was a gleam in Tada-san's eye.

With what 'sports car'? If you are going back to Chapman and British roadsters I already made that point much earlier so I'm glad you agree with me.

First to market is just a hell of a lot easier when you are starting from scratch, and you don't already have a product plan that goes 12+ years out and design work 7+ years out, with tooling costs to ammortize and planned refreshes already in the pipeline to produce.

So what's Ford's excuse going to be when the all new 2015 rolls in at 3200lbs or worse after having 10 full years of development as you say?

There's a fine line between what makes Ford sell 250,000 Mustangs and what makes Nissan sell 250 370Zs in a month...Who wins and who loses is all about who can really figure out what consumers want. And it's not as easy as just making something small and light.

That is certainly part of the equation and I promise you Ford will market lightweight to sell tons of cars till the Camaro gets redone.

-- else Toyota would be the one selling hundreds of thousands of these.

No they wouldn't. The only way Toyota would ever get Mustang numbers is if they added a V8 option and swapped the logo w/ a Ford/Dodge/Chevy badge or anything else perceived to be 'American'. Let's not get carried away and suggest all sales leaders do well based on their actual performance merits. There's a crap ton of preconceived psychological BS that accounts for sales as well as other economic factors beyond anything the actual car brings to the table itself.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:20 PM   #106
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It has more to do with CAFE than anything. Car manufacturers HAVE to improve MPG's drastically (pretty much double versus what they get now within the next 20 years). Reducing weight and smaller displacement engines with direct injection are one easy way to do it. Hybrid is another but that costs significantly more.

Outside the US, standards tend to be even stricter, and this is a Global economy now. So yeah, weight reduction will continue across all manufacturers that make mass produced cheaper cars. Look at the Honda Accord. They actually made is smaller and lighter versus the previous generation. This is going to continue.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:28 PM   #107
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Also research Mazda Skyactiv technology (which is their fuel saving techbology) that they are touting in their vehicles including the Mazda3. One of the key benefits they mention is weight reduction.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:43 PM   #108
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I don't think it's changed the industry.

i think it's made people stop and think about the arm race for power levels a bit and brought sensibilities and driver focus back into the equation. We've come full circle a bit almost. People were spoiled for choice for 4WD and turbocharged rockets for a long time, but there wasn't an affordable coupe with RWD and a revvy NA engine.
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:05 PM   #109
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CAFE 2025 was only passed the middle of 2011.
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:27 PM   #110
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Whether or not the FT-86 has influenced other car designers or not, it's pretty safe to say that any car companies that were considering building lighter cars or dropping weight (or had something in a concept stage) have been given empirical data from the sales of FT-86 to plunge forward with those endeavors. So in that sense, we may end up seeing some cars in the next few years that may have otherwise not made it to production. Or we may not. Who knows.

I'm looking forward to seeing what both Ford does with the new Mustang, and what Nissan does with the new Z car.

EDIT: I'm also VERY curious about how the "greater than expected" sales of the FT-86 will affect Toyota's development of the new Supra. Because if I were to get a new car before 2020... I'd probably be looking at the new Supra as one of the candidates.
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Old 10-23-2013, 02:58 PM   #111
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Not Exactly. It is just overly commercialized, hyped. The same of what the FRS can achieve is nothing strange to the

MIATA.

For that being said. The Auto-Industry is still under the Influence of Bigger = Badder.

Look at all of the HP of the Automobiles these days. Even a Camry has 275 HP...wtf ?
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Old 10-24-2013, 09:15 AM   #112
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The benchmark for this car was the Porsche Cayman. In the end after years of development it has near identical specs to a Porsche 944S. So no it is has not changed the sports car industry In fact its a small gran tourer not a sports car. If you followed the dev of the car, they had to change the name to GT-86 when it ended up weighing so much.

Not a bad car by any means for the price, but not ground breaking. More of a throw-back or swan song of the affordable small rwd GT.
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