Which lightweight N/A V6 or H6 to choose?

[bradsm87]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

LS or built FA20 for what you said your goals are. Anything else seems like a waste of time and effort, let alone cost.

EZ30 makes 25% more power and 45% more torque than the FA20. That 45% more torque is available 2200rpm earlier. Makes a huge difference. I don't want any more power or torque than that. An LS when combined with the much heavier gearbox, is heavier than what I want and I just don't like then. It's a big backwards step in terms of technology.

At the same time, I don't want any LESS power and torque than the EZ30 either, which rules out using the FA20.

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Agreed with Summerwolf. A stock FA20 with drop-in filter + header + tune and/or e85 and a good oil cooler will accomplish most of what you're looking for. This will get you over 200 WHP reliably.

If you want more power reliably, any supercharge kit with CARB tune + tune + oil cooler. Stay under 300 WHP and 250 TQ if unless you want to upgrade the clutch. Get a catch can in either case.

Forged internals are nice, but not required for either of the above.

Spend the rest on tires + pads + fluid + camber bolts and you're good for years.

I don't want less than 220whp or 220 ft-lb torque. A tuned NA FA20 makes considerably less torque than that. I don't want forced induction.

Originally Posted by Pat.Thornton

Hmmmmmm... Lightweight, rev happy, makes a good noise, not too powerful, able to be mounted far back

=

13b ROTARY!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tempting. this would be verrry new to me. I'm a bit scared by the reliability factor.

Originally Posted by Spartarus

It will be as heavy as an LS1.

Not with gearbox weight factored in and I'm not after that type of power delivery. I have that type of power delivery in another car.

Originally Posted by Spartarus

Honestly though, if you want the v6 feel with less than 300 hp and Rev happy, just supercharge the FA20 and forget about the rest.

A 3sGE BEAMS motor with a GTX28-anything will do the job you want, but it's an I4. Despite being iron block, it is lighter than the FA20. The FA20 is a sickeningly heavy 4 banger. The 3s is an 86x86 i4, 11.5:1 and NA BHP of 209. It'll make more than 300 on a gt30-anything at 9 PSI. Expect to spend 1500 on motor and box. Port injection only.

I just don't want forced induction for many reasons. A big one is that I'm way too fussy and would want the very best, which costs too much (Intercooler, 10.5:1 pistons, motor is apart so may as well go Darton sleeves and 90mm bore etc. etc. etc.). I'd give in to temptation over time and spend waaay too much.

Originally Posted by Spartarus

The EZ30 will not fit any further aft than the FA20. The reason the FA sits so far forward is the steering column. That can't be moved aft either.

V engines can be pushed aft and in line engines even more so.

It's a bit of a catch-22. V6 too tall and H6 gets in way of steering column.

Having said that, factories always engineer in a huge amount of clearance around items such as the steering column, and with stiffer engine mounts, you can usually always go much closer. The EZ30 has smaller cylinder spacing and isn't that much longer than an FA20 so I think weight distribution could still be really good.

Originally Posted by Gear_One_Performance

For your goals with the car as far as a medium power fairly reliable platform you might want to consider doing a small turbo or a supercharger setup. That'll put you right in the sweet spot of enough power to have fun with but not so much that you're constantly getting in trouble and you won't have to be sourcing replacement parts for a custom setup down the road.

Power-delivery-wise, this could be done. With the way I'd want to do it, it would cost much more than the EZ30 swap and it's just be yet another forced induction car I've owned and I'd be too tempted to try and get more power out of it on an ongoing basis.

[DAEMANO]

[Calum]

Originally Posted by bradsm87

I don't want less than 220whp or 220 ft-lb torque. A tuned NA FA20 makes considerably less torque than that. I don't want forced induction.

That's crank numbers. Most supercharger kits will eclipse those figures.

[cf6mech]

Basic LS or one of the derivatives is 300hp.....dont think thats to much and you wont have to re-engineer everything.....stuffs already out there..

[bradsm87]

Originally Posted by Calum

That's crank numbers. Most supercharger kits will eclipse those figures.

As I said, I don't want more than that and the other reasons that I gave that I don't want forced induction.

[bradsm87]

Originally Posted by cf6mech

Basic LS or one of the derivatives is 300hp.....dont think thats to much and you wont have to re-engineer everything.....stuffs already out there..

I want a 6 cylinder for the economy, weight (including gearbox weight) and something that's fairly highly strung and revvy from factory, not something that I'll be tempted to constantly mod. If I went LS, I'd still do custom mounts etc myself, so no advantage there. I also want something that's more or less technologically equivalent to what's already in there (minus DI). So twin cam and VVT at minimum.

[Spartarus]

Originally Posted by bradsm87

I want a 6 cylinder for the economy, weight (including gearbox weight) and something that's fairly highly strung and revvy from factory, not something that I'll be tempted to constantly mod. If I went LS, I'd still do custom mounts etc myself, so no advantage there. I also want something that's more or less technologically equivalent to what's already in there (minus DI). So twin cam and VVT at minimum.

Ok, I swore no more arguments on the internet. I swore it.

Ah, the hell with it.

Do you even know why you want VVT? Do you understand why a certain engine is a step forward or back in terms of technology? If I locked the hood with a padlock could you even tell?

You understand that an EZ30 will wind up with a worse weight distribution than an LS-equipped 86? That the raw weight difference between FA20+AZ6 and LS1+T56 equates to significantly less than a 10-year-old passenger with a school bag? And is located in about the same position, except a whole lot lower down?

You understand that an FA20 with a heavy supercharger kit and intercooler outweighs an LS1? That a dressed EZ30 likely outweighs an LS1?

You understand that low compression pistons aren't necessarily an upgrade?

And finally, that the 3sGE BEAMS is a closed-deck iron block that you will never have to sleeve? And still weighs less than an FA20? With dual VVT, cams that you just wouldn't upgrade, and titanium valves? Stock?

That with a correctly-sized turbo you won't even know it's under there?

That it can make 400 HP on pump-swill? ...Maybe 370 to the wheels, I wouldn't be optimistic after that without ethanol, and lots of it.

That it runs right through 8500 RPM turbocharged and it's still making power?

How's that for high-strung?

[SkAsphalt]

Toyota V6 for the win. Check out videos of a stock toyota v6 from a rav4 dropped into a MR2. Magic

[bradsm87]

Originally Posted by Spartarus

Do you even know why you want VVT? Do you understand why a certain engine is a step forward or back in terms of technology? If I locked the hood with a padlock could you even tell?

VVT at least on the intake cam is awesome. You can run somewhat decent cams and get beautiful smoothness from idle and decent performance all the way to redline. That's why HKS make the V-Cam for the RB26 and that's why some racers swap the RB26 head to an RB25 head in GTRs to get the VVT. It gets you the best of both worlds big time. This is one of the reasons why newer engines generally get better power per litre. They can get away with running higher duration cams without negatively affecting drivability.

Originally Posted by Spartarus

You understand that an EZ30 will wind up with a worse weight distribution than an LS-equipped 86? That the raw weight difference between FA20+AZ6 and LS1+T56 equates to significantly less than a 10-year-old passenger with a school bag? And is located in about the same position, except a whole lot lower down?

I don't want an LS caveman engine. Each to their own

Originally Posted by Spartarus

You understand that an FA20 with a heavy supercharger kit and intercooler outweighs an LS1?

Yes I do understand that. That's one of the reasons why I don't want forced induction.

Originally Posted by Spartarus

That a dressed EZ30 likely outweighs an LS1?

Not with gearboxes attached.

Originally Posted by Spartarus

You understand that low compression pistons aren't necessarily an upgrade?

I didn't say low. I said lower. I hate low compression motors, however going from 12.5:1 to 11:1 and the increase in boost and timing that it allows for in boosted applications, is an upgrade when combined with the increased boost and timing. Not relevant anyway because I don't want to do it. For E85 + boost, sure, 12:1 is a great CR.

Originally Posted by Spartarus

And finally, that the 3sGE BEAMS is a closed-deck iron block that you will never have to sleeve? And still weighs less than an FA20? With dual VVT, cams that you just wouldn't upgrade, and titanium valves? Stock?

That with a correctly-sized turbo you won't even know it's under there?

That it can make 400 HP on pump-swill? ...Maybe 370 to the wheels, I wouldn't be optimistic after that without ethanol, and lots of it.

That it runs right through 8500 RPM turbocharged and it's still making power?

How's that for high-strung?

I don't want to turbo full stop. I've already done multiple nice turbo 4cyl builds in the past. I don't want that this time.



Aaanyway... back on topic. Any other worthy N/A V6 or H6 engines I'm missing?

[Summerwolf]

All of your reasons are not well thought out. An FA20 will get you your goals without too much effort and still weigh less...plus it is meant for the chassis.


LS, even after factoring in gearbox weight, doesn't increase the overall weight of the car by much and all the torque you claim to be seeking would be abundant.


You're limiting your options to oddball shit. Research is your friend.


99.9% chance this will never happen, like most motor swaps anyways. So, a built FA20 is probably your best bet. Or a chassis that has a V6 to begin with.

[bradsm87]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

All of your reasons are not well thought out. An FA20 will get you your goals without too much effort and still weigh less...plus it is meant for the chassis.


LS, even after factoring in gearbox weight, doesn't increase the overall weight of the car by much and all the torque you claim to be seeking would be abundant.


You're limiting your options to oddball shit. Research is your friend.


99.9% chance this will never happen, like most motor swaps anyways. So, a built FA20 is probably your best bet. Or a chassis that has a V6 to begin with.

LOL it's not oddball shit. I don't want V8 torque. I want 3-3.5L 6 cylinder torque. I don't want a chassis that comes with a V6, I want an 86 for an engine swap project. An FA20 will not get my goal.

I don't do bolt-in kits for many reasons and I'm not in the US. EZ30Rs are dime a dozen here in Australia. Considering that it's got the perfect power delivery for what I want, bolts up to the stock gearbox, fits well and I just love the sound, I don't see any reason not to.

LOL @ this forum. I ask a simple question asking if I've missed any N/A V6 or H6 engines to consider and I get about 2 legitimate replies to about 10 saying to either LS swap it or go forced induction.

[GSpeed]

I do love me some good bench racing.

What about an LFX? You mentioned only wanting port injection, but you're also talking about not wanting a caveman motor, so...

Motec M142 would have no problem driving an LFX, if you want to go high-tech.

Jake

[bradsm87]

Here's a random vid I found on youtube. I love the sound of these things.

I liked my custom exhaust better but I never got any vids. I remember just doing the exhaust to the point where the banks merge and driving it all weekend like that. Loved the thing!

As I said in my first post, I literally stepped out from driving an 86 and got into my Liberty wagon full of camping gear and it pulled so much harder, despite the considerable weight difference between the cars. The EZ30 is a great engine.

Here's one in an 86:

Thanks to those that answered some of my questions, in particular, the tall height of 60 degree V6s being an issue.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by bradsm87

LOL @ this forum. I ask a simple question asking if I've missed any N/A V6 or H6 engines to consider and I get about 2 legitimate replies to about 10 saying to either LS swap it or go forced induction.

There is a reason.


A built FA20 WOULD get you your overall power goal. You could easily do a stroker kit or the likes to get the torque curve more like what you're looking for and it would still be cheaper than a well sorted engine swap.


I mean V6 engines there are plenty options.


VQ37VHR


LFX


Ecoboost....


Any of those are arguably "better" than what you're contemplating. Guess what, they all have more downsides than an LS or built FA20.