Motor Trend, August issue.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Dimman

As a Scion or Toyota there is a HUGE market for a compact pickup that's sized under the Tacoma. Optional 4x4 and real off-road package, optional small turbo diesel motor.

ok so if this market is so huge, then why arent car companies making more of these small pickups?

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by madfast

yes, but just because you can doesnt mean you necessarily will. and even if you do, how often? and is that representative of the general populace?



hence all the idiots who buy trucks, only to use the pickup bed once a year...



it can look sporty. but that doesnt mean it has to do 0-60 in 4 secs and pull 0.99 g...



my argument, that has never changed, is that scion would be better off making a suv/crossover rather than a compact pickup. they make a lot of hatchbacks now, but they dont offer AWD. what's the argument for a compact suv/crossover? simple. its the same core reasons why people buy them to begin with: cargo space, ride height, fuel economy, ride/comfort, etc. its self explanatory.

what isnt self explanatory is why the average family would buy a pickup. all the reasons you state that someone might buy a pickup, turn out to be some out of the ordinary task they do a few times a year. fixing up your home, talking a bag of leaves god knows where, moving couches for a friend, etc, etc. etc.... all of the above is not normal day to day living for most people.

a truck CAN get groceries, BUT WHO WOULD WANT TO???? its one thing to say i have a truck, so i get my groceries in the truck. you have the truck, of course you're gonna use it. but its a whole other story to say i get a lot of groceries, therefore i must buy a pickup... NOBODY says that! but buy a SUV over a car? SURE!!!!!!! tons of people buy suvs EXACTLY for that reason. they need cargo space, but arent going to go to the extreme and get a pickup so you can carry whatever you like whenever you happen to need it....

People are going to buy the FT86 to be poseurs and look ricey. We all know this. So Scion is not well served by it? This is your logic.

You can argue that you feel most people who buy pickups don't use them how they are intended, but that is true of most AWD S/CUVs, most sports cars, and most exotics. Yet that doesn't stop people from wanting and buying them.

All of Scion's SUV/CUV requirements are served by the xB. AWD on compact SUVs is largely overkill. FWD and good tires are more than enough in the snow. Add some traction/stability control and that's all CUV owners will ever need. You don't go offroading in SUVs that have a 90/10 FR default torque split and no low-range.

But a compact inexpensive 4x4 truck is a completely new market for Scion, one that already has an established youth base.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

I never said it does it better, just that it's feasible. If you're basing your car buying soley on being able to take the whole family to the Store, then by all means buy an SUV.

Obviously with everything there are tradeoffs. Most people are willing to sacrifice a little to get that Bed and haul stuff.

you're crazy dude...

i bet there are like 100x more people that haul their families to the store in a SUV than haul whatever in a pickup bed...

if this segment was so popular, every manufacturer would throw their hat in the ring to get a piece. yet there are so few choices out there. but SUV/crossovers? there are so many you couldnt count them all...

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by madfast

ok so if this market is so huge, then why arent car companies making more of these small pickups?

Partly because they have much longer product cycles. Just watch in the future.

Edit: http://www.pickuptrucks.com/html/201...-on-f-150.html

Check this out, I may not be 100% correct on the size in the next generations, but the reasons are for production costs, so they can share components (including the frame) between full-size and mid-size products. Apparently Nissan is already doing this with the Titan and Frontier.

What they are doing is compromising the need for the small, efficient truck I've been talking about, without having to spend millions on new chassis and component development.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by madfast

ok so if this market is so huge, then why arent car companies making more of these small pickups?

Exactly they were dropped from the line or got larger. No matter what no one feels it is worthwhile to cater to this segment. There is a reason for that, it doesn't exist.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Partly because they have much longer product cycles. Just watch in the future.

Small pickup trucks just aren't really cool. If a truck is all about being "manly" then why sell yourself short with a tiny ass truck. Every guy I know wants the largest truck possible with the largest rubber possible. Never heard anyone say bring back the Chevy S10.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Want to go off-roading? Buy a used TF or FJ. Who in the world would want to off road their daily driver?

I still hold that a truck is way overkill for the typical person unless they use it for work, just like madfast. Look at Europe, you hardly see any pickups on the road. You see a bunch of small 3 and 5 door cars and they seem to do fine picking up all their groceries and kids from school. A huge ass pickup is just a waste of metal for the typical car user. But most people don't use logic when they purchase a car and use their "heart."

this is a great point. if you argue that pickups can be daily driven, then why doesnt europe have as many as we do? maybe pickups, like cowboys, are an american culture thing... so that doesnt say much about the vehicle, as much as it says about the people...

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Europe has a way more urbanized population than North America. More people take the train there too. Doesn't apply here.

I know a few people that do off road their daily drivers. Not extreme stuff, maybe trails when they go camping or hunting (also not popular in Europe).

Plus I've never been talking about a huge ass pickup. Something sized like the Toyota mini-truck of the 80s. And the lack of logic applies to all cars. Even the FT86 is going to have a swarm of cosmetic-only, automatic transmission-equipped 'drift' cars...

dont europeans have friends who need their couches moved as well? oh whatever are they to do!

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by madfast

this is a great point. if you argue that pickups can be daily driven, then why doesnt europe have as many as we do? maybe pickups, like cowboys, are an american culture thing... so that doesnt say much about the vehicle, as much as it says about the people...

Enough with the Europeans, already... We are not Europe. Spend some time in rural North America, get out of your urban bubble, and you will learn that pickups are not these ridiculous, impractical monstrosities you seem to think they are.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Enough with the Europeans, already... We are not Europe. Spend some time in rural North America, get out of your urban bubble, and you will learn that pickups are not these ridiculous, impractical monstrosities you seem to think they are.

Europe has rural areas as well. They have farms and ranches. It isn't just cities.

Btw I never said a truck isn't useful in a rural environment for a farmer or rancher. It is. I don't think madfast would disagree with that either.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Europe has rural areas as well. They have farms and ranches. It isn't just cities.

Btw I never said a truck isn't useful in a rural environment for a farmer or rancher. It is. I don't think madfast would disagree with that either.

And Japan has almost no rural areas and they make kei van pickups. Is it relevant to us? No. Except when in Canada they are importing them like nuts because they are useful.



It's not just farmers and ranchers in rural areas. Mining, oil, forestry, construction, blue collar people in general, all have both work and play uses for pickups.

F-series was the best selling vehicle in North America for decades. It may be shocking but not all are urban wannabe cowboys.

Edit: Japan having no rural areas is a massive, incorrect exaggeration on my part, but whatever...

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Dimman

People are going to buy the FT86 to be poseurs and look ricey. We all know this. So Scion is not well served by it? This is your logic.

You can argue that you feel most people who buy pickups don't use them how they are intended, but that is true of most AWD S/CUVs, most sports cars, and most exotics. Yet that doesn't stop people from wanting and buying them.

All of Scion's SUV/CUV requirements are served by the xB. AWD on compact SUVs is largely overkill. FWD and good tires are more than enough in the snow. Add some traction/stability control and that's all CUV owners will ever need. You don't go offroading in SUVs that have a 90/10 FR default torque split and no low-range.

But a compact inexpensive 4x4 truck is a completely new market for Scion, one that already has an established youth base.

no. you have to think from a manufacturer's standpoint. is there a large enough market for a compact pickup? what are the sales numbers? what are the surveys and focus groups saying? what are the customers telling our dealers?

do you honestly think there are enough people out there that walk into a toyota dealership and say, gosh i wish this tacoma was smaller?

yes AWD is mostly unnecessary. but people want it. they demand it. blame audi and subaru marketing i guess. either way, there IS a real world benefit to AWD... low range? now that's way overkill for a compact suv/crossover...

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dimman

It's not just farmers and ranchers in rural areas. Mining, oil, forestry, construction, blue collar people in general, all have both work and play uses for pickups.

I think you just made madfast and my points for us. Notice nothing about DD, picking up kids from school, getting groceries, driving to the office. All of the things you listed are work related and require a truck as part of the job. A Civic would not work in their case.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by madfast

no. you have to think from a manufacturer's standpoint. is there a large enough market for a compact pickup? what are the sales numbers? what are the surveys and focus groups saying? what are the customers telling our dealers?

do you honestly think there are enough people out there that walk into a toyota dealership and say, gosh i wish this tacoma was smaller?

yes AWD is mostly unnecessary. but people want it. they demand it. blame audi and subaru marketing i guess. either way, there IS a real world benefit to AWD... low range? now that's way overkill for a compact suv/crossover...

People are talking with their wallets. Instead of begging a dealer to make them a smaller truck 5 years from now, they are either importing their own from Japan, or going to dealers like this:

http://www.minitruck.ca/sale.cfm