Toll lanes coming on the 405

[YouShallKnow]

Originally Posted by Hyper4mance2k

Spending money doesn't grow the economy. putting it in banks (like rich people do) so banks can loan it out and make money on the investments grows the economy.

I agree, putting money in savings accounts that are leveraged to make loans grows the economy.

Unfortunately, rich people don't put their money in banks or in savings accounts. Much of the time they put it into non-productive investments, like the secondary stock market. That money is effectively out of the economy. Taking that money through taxes and spending it on roads puts it into the economy.

The state should not spend money to build roads with money it doesn't have. That's like taking out a load to buy a turbo, and paying for that load with another loan. Why don't people understand this?

I'll ask again, why do you think the state doesn't have money for this?

[Hyper4mance2k]

Originally Posted by YouShallKnow

I agree, putting money in savings accounts that are leveraged to make loans grows the economy.

Unfortunately, rich people don't put their money in banks or in savings accounts. Much of the time they put it into non-productive investments, like the secondary stock market. That money is effectively out of the economy. Taking that money through taxes and spending it on roads puts it into the economy.



I'll ask again, why do you think the state doesn't have money for this?

Because the state's debts out weigh it's annual budget income. The budget is balanced, so what it spends in 2015 equals what it will take in in taxes, but the state still has old outstanding bills, just like the rest of us, and last I looked California had billions in debt.

[YouShallKnow]

Originally Posted by Hyper4mance2k

Because the state's debts out weigh it's annual budget income. The budget is balanced, so what it spends in 2015 equals what it will take in in taxes, but the state still has old outstanding bills, just like the rest of us, and last I looked California had billions in debt.

We're paying all our debts on time. You're saying we should forego making new roads to pay off debts early?

[Hyper4mance2k]

Originally Posted by YouShallKnow

We're paying all our debts on time. You're saying we should forego making new roads to pay off debts early?

I didn't say that at all. My initial comment wasn't even to you, so my argument with you was completely independent of the proposed road construction. I was expaining actual economic growth to you, and I said to Add3r that the increase in jobs isn't so great with all things considered.

I agree, putting money in savings accounts that are leveraged to make loans grows the economy.

Now that you have conceeded that economic growth comes from loans as opposed to redistribution, I am done here.

[YouShallKnow]

Originally Posted by Hyper4mance2k

I didn't say that at all.

Seems like you are.

Now that you have conceeded that economic growth comes from loans as opposed to redistribution, I am done here.

I said that putting money into savings accounts which are loaned out grows the economy.

Proper redistribution also grows the economy.

We can certainly agree that you are done. Keep politics off car forums eh?

[Hyper4mance2k]

Originally Posted by YouShallKnow

Keep politics off car forums eh?

Agreed.

Not that I'm an expert, but I have my BA in political science from UCI and happen to be a Federal Health Policy Reacher for the Department of Veterans Affairs, and I'm a soon to be MPP candidate.
Any economist worth thier salt would agree that keynesian economic policy only works in a budget surplus.

[Autocon]

The multi year 405 construction of lane widening they did up here in LA near Santa Monica has not improved commute times at all. They estimate that even after the lane widening that traffic is 3 to 7 minutes slower.

The problem with there projections is its based off the number of people on the road right now. They never properly equate for the staggering increase in amount of new motorists every year.

LA/SoCal needs better/more public transportation to handle traffic. Adding more lanes is never going to be the answer. Its like when your getting fat and you keep upping the notch on your belt. Its fine for a bit but its not solving the problem of you getting fat.

[afishl1]

How bout doing an "earthquake safe" double decker, that might be enough lanes... Its not like there's anything above the freeway in the way minus the overpasses which could just be raised

[DuMa]

Originally Posted by afishl1

How bout doing an "earthquake safe" double decker, that might be enough lanes... Its not like there's anything above the freeway in the way minus the overpasses which could just be raised

that sounds like a logistical nightmare to plan construction for. not to mention a traffic nightmare way worse than widening the lanes because you have to shut down an entire part of the freeway.

not to mention the incredible logistical nightmare to make it earthquake safe.

[Estey]

Originally Posted by YouShallKnow

I agree, putting money in savings accounts that are leveraged to make loans grows the economy.

Unfortunately, rich people don't put their money in banks or in savings accounts. Much of the time they put it into non-productive investments, like the secondary stock market. That money is effectively out of the economy. Taking that money through taxes and spending it on roads puts it into the economy.



I'll ask again, why do you think the state doesn't have money for this?

It seems like you're looking at things through quite a narrow scope. Also, you're basing economic growth on your assumption of the spending habits of rich people.. Im no economist; I'm just a college student, but it doesnt make a lot of sense to spend money (money we dont have) on something that will essentially return what was spent (redistribution of wealth), or maybe even return less. Government employees benefit from this, but the deficit will grow.
Of course, the purpose of this project isnt to generate revenue for the state, but to create a better infrastructure (im assuming). To me, it doesnt solve that issue at all because the majority of drivers dont use tolls anyways, and the number of drivers in socal are still increasing. So, this really is just a waste of resources. Although, Im not really sure what type of relationship these private toll companies have with the government. Im just taking things at face value, because I havent read too much into the issue.

[YouShallKnow]

Originally Posted by Estey

It seems like you're looking at things through quite a narrow scope.

I'm providing an example of how redistribution can lead to economic growth, I'm not saying that's the only or the primary way to grow the economy.

Also, you're basing economic growth on your assumption of the spending habits of rich people..

No, I'm basing an argument about growth through redistribution on the well documented investing habits of rich people.

Im no economist; I'm just a college student, but it doesnt make a lot of sense to spend money (money we dont have) on something that will essentially return what was spent (redistribution of wealth), or maybe even return less.

Why do you think we don't have this money? Why do you think it will only return what was spent?

Government employees benefit from this, but the deficit will grow.

Why do you think the defecit will grow? Do you think this project was somehow not budgeted for? Also, the people who build the project (not government employees) will benefit. And when those people spend their money, others will benefit. Oh yeah, and everyone who uses the 405 will benefit.

Of course, the purpose of this project isnt to generate revenue for the state, but to create a better infrastructure (im assuming). To me, it doesnt solve that issue at all because the majority of drivers dont use tolls anyways,

Doesn't just add a toll lane, you should read the source.

and the number of drivers in socal are still increasing. So, this really is just a waste of resources.

Explain that logic. So there are more drivers so we shouldn't build roads?!?

Although, Im not really sure what type of relationship these private toll companies have with the government. Im just taking things at face value, because I havent read too much into the issue.

No shit. The toll companies aren't private. We own them.

[Estey]

Originally Posted by YouShallKnow

I'm providing an example of how redistribution can lead to economic growth, I'm not saying that's the only or the primary way to grow the economy.



No, I'm basing an argument about growth through redistribution on the well documented investing habits of rich people.

Wheres the data? Does the massive middle class have nothing to do with economic growth?

So you're arguing that the taxing of wealthy individuals strengthens the economy? Because the wealthy arent the only ones who pay taxes..

Originally Posted by YouShallKnow

Why do you think we don't have this money? Why do you think it will only return what was spent?


Why do you think the defecit will grow? Do you think this project was somehow not budgeted for? Also, the people who build the project (not government employees) will benefit. And when those people spend their money, others will benefit. Oh yeah, and everyone who uses the 405 will benefit.

Doesn't just add a toll lane, you should read the source.

Obviously everything is budgeted for, but that doesnt mean that the state is spending its own money..

http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/2014-15/pd...ry/BS_SCH9.pdf

Theres the budget if you'd like to read it. It wouldnt say there, but I believe we have a deficit of 152 billion. Of course, all of this info can be found online.

btw, adding a single lane for the majority of the traffic to use hardly proves beneficial. If anything it may provide some buffer for the population growth, but what do i know.

Originally Posted by YouShallKnow

Explain that logic. So there are more drivers so we shouldn't build roads?!?

No shit. The toll companies aren't private. We own them.

I never said anything about not building roads. Dont twist my words. I simply replied to your opinion that it somehow strengthens the economy.

well shit, didnt know that.. I dont know why you're getting so hostile. It seems like you attack anyone who has a differing opinion.
Also, it helps to see evidence to back claims you make as well, so that people dont think you're just pulling words out of your ass

[chaoskaze]

Every time I'm in LA, I thought to myself... Why don't these xxxxxx have skytrain/monorail/subway. It surely have enough population to support one like the one in Tokyo or Taipei....

Even small ones that's like the one in Seattle or Vancouver is gonna help a bit...

[Hyper4mance2k]

This city is so large, it demands public transportation, but the car culture is strong here. When you add in the socioeconomic segregation, I doubt you could get real public support to fund a measure to correct the lack of public transportation, not until things are well beyond repair.

edit: damnit! sucked in again...

So, how about them local sports teams? Go Clippers!!!