Driving Technique - Track Out

[DarkSunrise]

Question for the track junkies. @CSG Mike

Is it a hard and fast rule to always use the full track out width when exiting a corner?

Exiting the left hairpin at the end of the back straight at SP Shenandoah, I can ease into WOT without the car pushing wide and needing the full track-out width. I usually end up about 3 feet inside the curbing at exit. My instructor mentioned that a few times and said the car should be all the way over when tracking out, but I'm not sure it's necessary if the car isn't pushing wide. I also like leaving a little space in the event I need to countersteer and don't want to drop two wheels. The only times I've tracked out that wide in that corner were when I carried too much speed, missed my intended apex, and pushed out wide.

Thoughts? Or maybe it means I can get on the throttle/unwind even earlier?

It's turn 20 in the track map below.

[circuithero]

The only reason you would not track out is if you were compromising the next corner or possibly compromising your traction out there on exit. For turn 20, given the long straight following and plenty of time and distance to set up for 21, I see no reason why you should be anything but on the outside as your instructor pointed out. Unless there is a traction/surface issue, you are compromising your speed through that corner by reducing the radius of your arc. Larger radius = bigger circle = higher velocity. Two thoughts come to mind: as you said, on the throttle earlier and let the car out and unwind all the way to the exit to minimize scrubbing and maximize traction.

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[DarkSunrise]

Thanks! That helps. It makes more sense to me to think about it in terms of "get on the throttle earlier" as opposed to "track out to the edge", as I didn't understand the need to track out fully if the rear end wasn't coming around. But I can see if I was to get on the throttle earlier, there'd be a need to unwind and track out more fully since the rear would certainly get loose.

[smbstyle]

Learn the line, then add speed.

When I started doing track events a few years ago, my instructor taught me the line at Sebring through Turn 17 where the track out point is almost touching the outside wall. I would drive the line, but had no idea why it was so far out when I didn't need that much room.

Slowly as I got more and more seat time, and started increasing my cornering speeds considerably, and getting on the throttle earlier, I got to the point where I needed every inch of that track out room, and more.

Here's an example...

So my first track day in my CTS-V, I wasn't using all of the track-out through Turn 17 at Sebring, because frankly I didn't need it. This video is coming out of 17, and you can see I'm in the middle of the track. I was running 2:50's
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In285Fxfav4"]Sebring lap in 2004 CTS-V - YouTube[/ame]



After a bunch of seat time in my Miata with a stock engine, just exhaust and suspension, I used every inch of track out because I needed every bit of it, and you can see how close I come to the wall. My cornering speeds are considerably higher than in the above video (turn 17 is at about 0:05 seconds in) - and this is a 2:45 lap (5 seconds faster in a stock engine Miata than I was in a 400hp CTS-V lol)
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw1TZBleLDs"]Sebring 2:45 Lap in a Miata - YouTube[/ame]


To sum it up; increase your cornering speed and get on the throttle earlier if there is more track available to you.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Question for the track junkies. @CSG Mike

Is it a hard and fast rule to always use the full track out width when exiting a corner?

Exiting the left hairpin at the end of the back straight at SP Shenandoah, I can ease into WOT without the car pushing wide and needing the full track-out width. I usually end up about 3 feet inside the curbing at exit. My instructor mentioned that a few times and said the car should be all the way over when tracking out, but I'm not sure it's necessary if the car isn't pushing wide. I also like leaving a little space in the event I need to countersteer and don't want to drop two wheels. The only times I've tracked out that wide in that corner were when I carried too much speed, missed my intended apex, and pushed out wide.

Thoughts? Or maybe it means I can get on the throttle/unwind even earlier?

It's turn 20 in the track map below.

I don't know how big the radius is, but it looks to me to be a double apex corner. Apex going in under trail braking, and then WOT and tuck back in, hug, and track out fully on exit

If it's a smaller corner, it may simply be a apex going in under trail braking, track wide, and then do turn in for 2nd apex, and roll onto the throttle, again while tracking out fully.

Only reason not to track out is track conditions do not allow (e.g. potholes, dips, elevation changes, camber, etc.), or if it directly feeds into another corner and it needs to be sacrificed. For an isolated exit like that, barring conditions, you should use the full track.

If you can WOT and not need to track out all the way, turn less and use the whole track, to reduce acceleration loss to scrubbing. Or, better yet, enter the turn faster (increase your vmin before you start going WOT).

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I can ease into WOT without the car pushing wide and needing the full track-out width. I usually end up about 3 feet inside the curbing at exit.

You just defined exactly what it means to not be getting on the throttle early enough and I'd guess you're also not carrying enough speed at apex.

Push that pedal down a little more a little earlier and remember that your throttle pedal and steering wheel are linked (in your mind) and the more you push on the "GO pedal" the more you unwind the steering wheel. You should be making the radius of every corner as large as possible.

Use the whole track, you paid for it.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Use the whole track, you paid for it.

[DarkSunrise]

Thanks, these are exactly the kinds of responses I was hoping for. A couple of points. I was single-apexing the corner, but I can see a double-apex line now that you mention it Mike. I may try that next time.

The line I was taking was a single late apex to setup for the straight. I don't think I can carry more speed into the corner on the line I was taking, because whenever I tried, I'd scrub wide and miss the apex by a few feet.

But I do think I can get on the throttle and unwind earlier (as pretty much everyone said lol). Next time, as soon as I hit the late apex, I'll roll hard onto the throttle and immediately unwind. Imagining that in my head, I can see that pulling me wide and widening the radius of the turn. Or glorious oversteer. Should be fun, can't wait.

Thanks again all.

[rice_classic]

So should we also talk about 2-wheels-off technique as well?

I'll leave that up to Mr. Sunrise.

[DarkSunrise]

Sure, lay it on me

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

So should we also talk about 2-wheels-off technique as well?

I'll leave that up to Mr. Sunrise.

I have "dirty" hot laps where I purposely drop 2 in a lot of places to carry more speed...

[Element Tuning]

Lots of good points brought up but yes there are times when track out isn't necessary or is slower but those are complicated to discuss unless you have intimate track knowledge.

I know Shenandoah and its not paved like a traditional track, it's paved like a road so thers is a crown in the middle. As you cross the crown the car gets loose exiting turn 20 and I suspect that's what makes you uneasy tracking out. From my experience to maximize your lap time there you need to track out as it leads you into another straight.

There are other areas of that track where you need to obay the camber and not track out by hugging the inside like at "hook." A traditional line at Shenandoah is not the fast line there and it looks all goofy on video so I would imagine its hard for an instructor there.

Going fast at that track is sketchy and involves a ton of sudden oversteer due to the crown I mentioned. So drive within your car control capabilities but I suspect your instructor senses you're "pinching" your turn so he wants you to undwind the wheel more so you don't induce oversteer as you get more confident exiting 20.

[fatoni]

i feel like another time you dont need the entire width of the track is when you can basically enter, maintain, and exit under full throttle. since i have a stock powered miata, i feel like i run into that a lot. ive never been there but it doesnt look like that kind of corner.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i feel like another time you dont need the entire width of the track is when you can basically enter, maintain, and exit under full throttle. since i have a stock powered miata, i feel like i run into that a lot. ive never been there but it doesnt look like that kind of corner.

In cases like that, you need to weigh distance traveled vs speed/acceleration lost to scrubbing.