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FR-S / BRZ vs.... Area to discuss the FR-S/BRZ against its competitors [NO STREET RACING]


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Old 06-03-2014, 09:07 AM   #29
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I think you guys are being a bit harsh on the Mustang.
I think people are just being realistic about its flaws, namely its weight/size, body control, seating position, steering feel, and gearshift. The OP regrets having bought the car, so I think it's fair warning.

And nearly everyone here has praised the Mustang for its V8 engine and the impressive laptimes it can put down, so there's equal parts praise and criticism going on.
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Old 06-03-2014, 10:47 AM   #30
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OP let us know how your trade goes if you do in fact trade it in.

I expect you to loose your ass big time though.

A. Its an american made car which traditionally dont hold their value well.
B. Its a major model change year which will compound the loss of value.
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Old 06-03-2014, 11:17 AM   #31
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My friend works for ford, in the mustang department, as a suspension engineer... and even though he offered me the X-plan that would get me into a mustang GT for less than my BRZ, I couldn't take the offer.

The OP says it all and I concur. The 5.0L is an amazing engine and having that kind of power is amazing. On the test drive, I went on a back two lane road right outside of San Francisco and was blown away. The Ford Sales person let me really rock the right pedal. However, on the way back to the dealership, there was stop and go traffic, and this is were i realized have 5.0Ls is not practical, especially as a daily driver. The feel of the Mustang was big, heavy, and brash... Not what I like.

Ultimately, I chose the BRZ (over the 2015 WRX as well ) because of the way the car made me feel. Yes it is under powered, yes it has a lot of first generation production flaws, yes it is small and unpractical, but I love the way it made me feel. The closest comparison I can think of is driving an older Mazda Miata.

The BRZ is a drivers car, plan and simple and the emotional response had me sold. I test drove the 2015 wrx, and it is an unbelievable machine. Everything about that car is perfect, but it does not create the same response.

I grew up in Maine, where it snows for almost half the year sometimes. Rear wheel drive was never an option for me until I moved here.

Power in the front. Manual gearbox in the middle. Power to the rear. Masculinity 101.

Thats my $.02
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Old 06-03-2014, 01:14 PM   #32
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Some good stuff in this thread. I almost picked up a 2011 Mustang V6 when they first came out. Glad I did not and waited for the BRZ. OP just helped me realize something. Unlike my previous vehicle, 2010 Cobalt SS turbocharged with GMS1, this car can be driven hard, but still in legal limits. My Cobalt, even though it was a little 2.0L turbo, it was very easy to get in trouble with that car.

I enjoy driving my car hard, and the best thing about the BRZ/FR-S, is that you can, and still keep it legal (most of the time). If I ever were to trade this car in though, the 2015 WRX is looking very tempting. However, I hope that does not happen because I really do enjoy this car, even if it remains stock for the rest of its life. I think the power in this car is just fine
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Old 06-03-2014, 01:17 PM   #33
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Some here have mentioned gas mileage/economy - the OP even commented on the "worse than expected economy" of the twins.

That hasn't been my experience - stock, I was averaging around 34.5 mpg in exclusively highway driving.

And then this happened last night on a 25 mile drive at an average of 62 mph:



Yes, I realize the Average MPG gauge/meter is not precise, but that's pretty freaking amazing.

Of course, I did a couple recent mods, so I'm not very close to stock anymore...

BTW, I do appreciate the write up, OP. I'm interested in Mustangs - especially the new '15, but the fact that every 5th car around here is a Mustang has always kept me from seriously considering one.
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Old 06-03-2014, 04:41 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by DarkSunrise View Post
I think people are just being realistic about its flaws, namely its weight/size, body control, seating position, steering feel, and gearshift. The OP regrets having bought the car, so I think it's fair warning.

And nearly everyone here has praised the Mustang for its V8 engine and the impressive laptimes it can put down, so there's equal parts praise and criticism going on.
So much of the Mustang's handling is due to the massive sticky tires. I was just debating with my buddy on how you can just look at specs. He gave me a hard time when I bought a BRZ, and a hard time with my WRX. Why? Because he looks at the price of the car and the spec sheet. "My Mustang GT is just so much more car for the money". I finally threw him the keys to my WRX and said "you drive". There is just so much more to a car that what the 0-60, 1/4 mile, and skid pad numbers tell you.

Needless to say he is starting to see my side to the argument in terms of speed and specs is not everything after driving the WRX. He drove it through some winding/tight roads and I told him to really push the car coming out of the corner. He has a new appreciation for AWD I wish I could let him dive a BRZ..
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Old 06-03-2014, 04:44 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eurasianman View Post
Some good stuff in this thread. I almost picked up a 2011 Mustang V6 when they first came out. Glad I did not and waited for the BRZ. OP just helped me realize something. Unlike my previous vehicle, 2010 Cobalt SS turbocharged with GMS1, this car can be driven hard, but still in legal limits. My Cobalt, even though it was a little 2.0L turbo, it was very easy to get in trouble with that car.

I enjoy driving my car hard, and the best thing about the BRZ/FR-S, is that you can, and still keep it legal (most of the time). If I ever were to trade this car in though, the 2015 WRX is looking very tempting. However, I hope that does not happen because I really do enjoy this car, even if it remains stock for the rest of its life. I think the power in this car is just fine
If it's one thing I miss about my AW11, was that it was so much fun at any speed. Plus hitting redline to shift and still within city speed limits at 1st? Awesomesauce.

My old IS300? Meh. Much faster but a pig. That's how I knew where my allegiances were. If someone were to give me a Mustang GT, I would use it as a daily driver but the AW11 would still be my weekend car.
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Old 06-03-2014, 05:08 PM   #36
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Once you have driven god's chariot (BMW E30) your perspective on all things changes. I have also considered a Mustang since the Coyote came out, but everytime I sit in one or drive one, I remember that it is not for me.
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Old 06-03-2014, 05:31 PM   #37
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Once you have driven god's chariot (BMW E30) your perspective on all things changes. I have also considered a Mustang since the Coyote came out, but everytime I sit in one or drive one, I remember that it is not for me.
That engine deserves a better chassis. Like ours.
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Old 06-03-2014, 05:34 PM   #38
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So much of the Mustang's handling is due to the massive sticky tires. I was just debating with my buddy on how you can just look at specs. He gave me a hard time when I bought a BRZ, and a hard time with my WRX. Why? Because he looks at the price of the car and the spec sheet. "My Mustang GT is just so much more car for the money". I finally threw him the keys to my WRX and said "you drive". There is just so much more to a car that what the 0-60, 1/4 mile, and skid pad numbers tell you.

Needless to say he is starting to see my side to the argument in terms of speed and specs is not everything after driving the WRX. He drove it through some winding/tight roads and I told him to really push the car coming out of the corner. He has a new appreciation for AWD I wish I could let him dive a BRZ..
Yep, the P-Zeros are the track pack Mustangs are definitely pretty sticky for street tires.

Your last paragraph reminds me of the first time I stomped on the gas at apex in my old STI, and that feeling of the AWD pulling the car through the turn. Very cool feeling. Sounds like your friend got his first taste of AWD turbocharged cars.
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Old 06-03-2014, 05:42 PM   #39
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I thought about it myself. I started one of those 'vs' threads a while back. I just couldn't get over how huge the mustang is and the fact that they are just everywhere. I still feel like my car is unique with the exception of race days, lol.
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:05 PM   #40
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try out a Boss302 if you want a Mustang that handles

those things are great cars but its just hard to capture of feel of the twins. You deff notice it the more you are away from the car yet the more you drive the car the more regular the handling feels and power stands out at least for me
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Old 06-03-2014, 07:02 PM   #41
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It's very interesting to me to see how much response this has generated.

I want to start by saying that both the Mustang and the BRZ/FRS are actually phenomanal cars. They both are tremedous examples of how far cars have come, both are great value and both totally work for daily living. That said there is a schism when it comes to what you're giving up to own either or. To own the Mustang you are giving up the tight small nimble darty car feel and that feeling is really important to driving enjoyment. Conversely, there is a different sort of enjoyment that comes from unlimited cosmic horsepower and you give that up when you buy a BRZ.

Is one type of enjoyment worse? No, they're totally both valid. My point wasn't that the Mustang is a lesser car, my point was that to me personally the FR-S was more than the sum of its parts and Mustang is less than the sum of its spec sheet. I enjoy them both a lot but I enjoyed the specific experience of the FR-S more, on average ,than the Mustang. Add to that the increase running cost of the Mustang and then throw in that the benefits of the mustang (better long distance cruiser, etc) were not things that were valuable to me a year later and it means that once the Dust settled, I was surprsied to find myself both subjectively and objectively prefering the Subaru.


Quote:
Originally Posted by King Tut View Post
Once you have driven god's chariot (BMW E30) your perspective on all things changes. I have also considered a Mustang since the Coyote came out, but everytime I sit in one or drive one, I remember that it is not for me.
I've owned quite a few of these, all before (and during) my ownership of the FR-S and the Mustang


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Originally Posted by DarkSunrise View Post
I think people are just being realistic about its flaws, namely its weight/size, body control, seating position, steering feel, and gearshift. The OP regrets having bought the car, so I think it's fair warning.

And nearly everyone here has praised the Mustang for its V8 engine and the impressive laptimes it can put down, so there's equal parts praise and criticism going on.
Well said. The Mustang is a great car and Ford is definitely changing the image of it being a low tech straight line only special but it serves no one to claim it is something it is not. To get those power and handling and price numbers the car leaves refinement on the table and if you're at anything but 10/10ths that will stand out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by robwbright View Post
Some here have mentioned gas mileage/economy - the OP even commented on the "worse than expected economy" of the twins.

That hasn't been my experience - stock, I was averaging around 34.5 mpg in exclusively highway driving.

And then this happened last night on a 25 mile drive at an average of 62 mph:




Yes, I realize the Average MPG gauge/meter is not precise, but that's pretty freaking amazing.

Of course, I did a couple recent mods, so I'm not very close to stock anymore...

BTW, I do appreciate the write up, OP. I'm interested in Mustangs - especially the new '15, but the fact that every 5th car around here is a Mustang has always kept me from seriously considering one.


To add to my comment, I'm not unhappy with what the car can do economy wise - I was mislead by poor sticker ratings compared to reality. In Canada, they have just revised the fuel economy testing and the new 2015 ratings are exactly in line with what I would get in my FR-S. The previous ratings were based on an older 2-cycle test, the new ones use a 5 cycle test which considers hot/cold temps and 'very high speed' highway driving. The predicted combined average in 2012 when I purchased was something like 8.5L/100km which is 27 MPG. I was barely averaging 11.5L/100km (which is about 20mpg) and I was using some eco-driving tricks to even get that ( I have an all city driving commute )

Also, its really great that you get such a good number but your specific commute is going to deliver a very different result. Even my 5.0 will average 25mpg if I have a long highway journey, but in town where I am 90% of the time it tanks down to 15mpg.
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So much of the Mustang's handling is due to the massive sticky tires. I was just debating with my buddy on how you can just look at specs. He gave me a hard time when I bought a BRZ, and a hard time with my WRX. Why? Because he looks at the price of the car and the spec sheet. "My Mustang GT is just so much more car for the money". I finally threw him the keys to my WRX and said "you drive". There is just so much more to a car that what the 0-60, 1/4 mile, and skid pad numbers tell you.

Needless to say he is starting to see my side to the argument in terms of speed and specs is not everything after driving the WRX. He drove it through some winding/tight roads and I told him to really push the car coming out of the corner. He has a new appreciation for AWD I wish I could let him dive a BRZ..
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSunrise View Post
Yep, the P-Zeros are the track pack Mustangs are definitely pretty sticky for street tires.

Your last paragraph reminds me of the first time I stomped on the gas at apex in my old STI, and that feeling of the AWD pulling the car through the turn. Very cool feeling. Sounds like your friend got his first taste of AWD turbocharged cars.
The gumball tires are part of it but lets not discount that ford has put a lot of effort into improving balance and general suspension design. You can put sticky tires on anything, but it can't always make use of it. The Mustang is still better than any other RWD domestic when it comes to handling, and even though they're heavy and use ancient suspension they are still staying competitive with much more expensive metal.

It's that whole 'fun' thing they need to work on.


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Originally Posted by Mr.Jay View Post
try out a Boss302 if you want a Mustang that handles

those things are great cars but its just hard to capture of feel of the twins. You deff notice it the more you are away from the car yet the more you drive the car the more regular the handling feels and power stands out at least for me
I've driven a 302, it handled about the same as my modified GT did. I'm sure due to the more thorough work over the Boss gets it would probably be quicker around a track but in terms of how it feels it was very similar to my GT.


I can honestly answer most questions by just saying it isn't about what the mustang can do, it's about how it does it.

Someone already said, it can post the times but you'll have more fun in a BRZ that is 20 seconds slower.
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Old 06-03-2014, 07:18 PM   #42
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The Mustang is still better than any other RWD domestic when it comes to handling, and even though they're heavy and use ancient suspension they are still staying competitive with much more expensive metal.
I don't know if I'd say that - the Camaro SS 1LE is pretty competitive. Both are shockingly good though, considering both their roots and how heavy they are. I recently had a chance to drive a Mustang GT Track Pack, and I was extremely impressed. It's definitely an amazing car, especially considering how cheap you can get them these days ($32k or so for a GT Premium with Track Pack).
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