Official: Toyota FT-1 Concept / First New Supra Prototype Spotted!

[ScoobsMcGee]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Camaro stuff.

I'm pretty sure BMW and Toyota are more targeting the Porsche 718 and Alfa 4c market than those cross-shopping muscle cars. Rumored power, weight, and price all match up. If the money over a Camaro or Mustang goes into a mix between interior build materials and markup to accommodate a lower sales volume, they're well situated.

With a few exceptions (I'm looking at you, AMG) there isn't much of a muscle car market outside of the US, and its difficult to make something on-par with the domestics at the same price. Add in decades of loyalty to the marques, and you'd have to make a car that is significantly better (or at least equal) for less money just to get a foothold into the market. While the Supra name does carry weight, 20 years is a long hiatus while the Mustang and Camaro have soldiered on.

I'm sure there will be a group of people (and likely Internet armies) going on about how their base-spec V8 Mustang will blow the doors off of a Supra, just as there are plenty of people who go on about how their turbo 4 Mustang will do the same to a BRZ. Heck, a Miata RF quickly gets into V8 Mustang territory, while being slower in benchmark numbers than the soft top version.

The people who buy a Supra will either run mental gymnastics trying to justify it over a muscle car (weight, feel, whatever), benchmark it against what it actually competes with, or (my personal preference) just not give a damn. We'll see how many of those people there are.

[R_E_L]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

The thing that worries me is, BMW engines are trash in the reliability department.

based on my limited knowledge and experience I would say modern BMW engines are not the problem, it's the other components/electronics that that are used for cost saving and not designed to last much beyond your average lease.

Additionally you are forgetting that even though they are not building the car independently from the ground up, Toyota will still be putting their badge on it, which to many represents reliability. I don't think they would take the chance of tainting their brand with a sub-standard car, particularly one that will serve as a halo car.

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by R_E_L

based on my limited knowledge and experience I would say modern BMW engines are not the problem, it's the other components/electronics that that are used for cost saving and not designed to last much beyond your average lease.

Additionally you are forgetting that even though they are not building the car independently from the ground up, Toyota will still be putting their badge on it, which to many represents reliability. I don't think they would take the chance of tainting their brand with a sub-standard car, particularly one that will serve as a halo car.

BMW hasn’t been able to spec a proper bearing clearance since ever.

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by R_E_L

based on my limited knowledge and experience I would say modern BMW engines are not the problem, it's the other components/electronics that that are used for cost saving and not designed to last much beyond your average lease.

Additionally you are forgetting that even though they are not building the car independently from the ground up, Toyota will still be putting their badge on it, which to many represents reliability. I don't think they would take the chance of tainting their brand with a sub-standard car, particularly one that will serve as a halo car.

The last 4c I optioned out came to $93k...

[NemesisPrime909]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

You're right. But apparently a BMW is a Supra.

Like the 86 is a Subaru?

[ajh88]

Supra used a Getrag transmission and BMW helped develop the 2JZ iirc. I don't understand the haters on this one... It was always going to be an M2 fighter. With e85 and a tune these are going to be making 450whp.

[gymratter]

Originally Posted by R_E_L

based on my limited knowledge and experience I would say modern BMW engines are not the problem, it's the other components/electronics that that are used for cost saving and not designed to last much beyond your average lease.

Additionally you are forgetting that even though they are not building the car independently from the ground up, Toyota will still be putting their badge on it, which to many represents reliability. I don't think they would take the chance of tainting their brand with a sub-standard car, particularly one that will serve as a halo car.

base on my experience with 3 different gens of the 5 series i would say you are correct. the motor and tranny are fine. however its electronics that go to shit over time and cost an arm and a leg to fix.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by ajh88

Supra used a Getrag transmission and BMW helped develop the 2JZ iirc. I don't understand the haters on this one... It was always going to be an M2 fighter. With e85 and a tune these are going to be making 450whp.

Hopefully it doesn't take e85 to make 450+, lol.

[krayzie]

Originally Posted by ajh88

BMW helped develop the 2JZ iirc. I don't understand the haters on this one...

Not sure about the BMW bit but the 2JZ didn't debut with the Supra. It was made for this.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q95henUSHc0"]toyota aristo ad - YouTube[/ame]

[gymratter]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1laDMeAZJv4"]"GR Supra Racing Concept" Born from 3 Elements - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMjC4MeCJko"]"S" Spirit - YouTube[/ame]

[Captain Snooze]

I've just watched a couple of Geneva '18 clips which have stated that this new Supra won't be released until 2019. Is this car taking longer than normal* to develop?

*I have no idea how long it takes a large car company to get a car from idea to dealership.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

I've just watched a couple of Geneva '18 clips which have stated that this new Supra won't be released until 2019. Is this car taking longer than normal* to develop?

*I have no idea how long it takes a large car company to get a car from idea to dealership.

There is no standard but the "normal" timing is 3 to 5 years (if at all) from first introduction of the concept. Keeping in mind that much of the early life of the concept were only renders (and a video game vehicle) so it seems like it has been in the concept stage longer than it really has. Toyota only announced that they were actually working on a production concept in 2014.
http://toyotanews.pressroom.toyota.c...ept+reveal.htm


So the FT-1 is right on schedule for normal car development.

[unhappymeal]

Originally Posted by ScoobsMcGee

With a few exceptions (I'm looking at you, AMG) there isn't much of a muscle car market outside of the US, and its difficult to make something on-par with the domestics at the same price.

I was with you until this point. The Mustang is the fastest selling sports car in Europe and the take rate on the V8 is something crazy like 80%. There is absolutely a market for muscle cars outside the US, you just need to execute and market it right.

Edit: I will also add that it's not hard to see why. Ford has a good reputation in Europe and if you have 50k Euros to spend, you can get a decently equipped Mustang GT, a loaded 420i or a stripper 430i. I know what I'd spend my money on.

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

I've just watched a couple of Geneva '18 clips which have stated that this new Supra won't be released until 2019. Is this car taking longer than normal* to develop?

*I have no idea how long it takes a large car company to get a car from idea to dealership.

The 86 took 3 years from concept reveal. It was probably years in the planning before that.