F20C Swapped Brz

[Sideways&Smiling]

Originally Posted by jdmblood

I only found those two pictures. Unless you got the brz chassis for extremely cheap, I dont see why you wouldnt just buy an s2000 or swap an ls instead.

Originally Posted by finch1750

wtf? why not just buy an s2k? I mean its a good motor but damn...

Originally Posted by MisterSheep

Lol because the 86 platform is a much more attractive looking car.

Originally Posted by jdmblood

Im sure its going to be a very bare bones swap with no ac, tc, abs, etc etc

He's building a time attack car. I highly doubt looks are much of a concern, but beyond that...

I've done some serious time attack bench racing in my head concerning this very subject (lol), only I was thinking about putting an F22C into a 240sx or FD RX7. However, the benefits would be similar. Let me break it down:

First, the F20C/F22C is simply a better engine than the SR20DET, FA20, 13B, etc. when you consider all the factors together: reliability, efficiency (fuel enconomy), flow, power capability with forced induction, etc.... It's one of the best 4 cylinder engines you can get. Yes, the 13B can make a lot of power, but it's going to cost you a lot of money to build, a lot of money to fuel, and it's most likely not going to be as reliable. As for the SR20DET, they too can be awesome when you convert them to use the NEO VVL head from the NA FWD SR20VE. It flows much, much better than the DET head and features variable valve lift, similar to Honda's VTEC, while also eliminating the DET's main weakness (breaking rocker arms) by having a better design (rolling rockers). Once you do that, it becomes an incredible engine. The problem? It costs a lot of money to do that. Also, F2xC engines seem to last a lot longer without needing to be sleeved compared to SR20VET setups. Cost effective!

This leaves us with addressing the alternatives: LSx swaps. LSx swaps are very common in drifting because of only 2 things: cost and torque. They are perfect for constantly being able to break traction as easily as possible, but they aren't perfect for small, front-biased Japanese coupes/roadsters competing in time attack. Why? 2 reasons: Weight and torque. They weigh more. Sometimes that weight difference is minimal, but every little bit counts in time attack cars, as it makes a huge difference in handling. As for the torque, it can be difficult to dial in the right balance of traction and power. Smaller engines with a turbo are just a bit easier to get the proper balance when you're trying to maintain as much grip as possible. This is why you don't really see any competitive LSx Silvias/RX7s/S2000s/Miatas/etc. in pro time attack. There are some, but they aren't winning.

So, back to the F20C/F22C. Besides being very good engines that can make a lot of power with boost, you are able to get a 2.2L right out of the box! Most people running SR2xVETs go for at least 2.2L to get just a bit more torque (but not too much like in a big V8).... Some do 2.3L or 2.4L, but there are very, very successful cars running 2.2L..... With the F22C, you get this right out of the box. Again, it's cost effective!

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Because the BRZ chassis is superior.

Now, to address this..... the BRZ may be a better option, but I don't really think it's because of stiffness. The S2000 is plenty stiff already, and so are the Silvias and RX7s when caged, and those are significantly less stiff than the S2000. I think the real advantage comes comes from 2 things: 1. Weight and 2. Stability. It's a slightly lighter car than the S2000, and it has a significantly longer wheelbase, making it much more stable at high speeds. For as incredibly agile and awesome the S2000 is at low to medium speeds, the short wheelbase and hyper-responsive steering can make it unstable at high speeds compared to these other cars, especially something like an S14/S15 or BRZ/FRS. This is the same reason why Miatas dominate autocross so often, but almost never do well in time attack.

However, suspension design on the S2000 is easily better.... this is why you see most non-double-wishbones-all-around-from-the-factory time attack cars (Evos, WRXs, Silvias, etc.) using custom fabricated double wishbone (or even push-rod) suspension. This is not easy to do and is very expensive because it's not easy to find people to do it right for you. So, again, it's about tradeoffs.... This is one area where the RX7, S2000, and NSX really excel.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

We both know weight distribution means little beyond marketing, and as you drop weight in the S2000, it becomes much more nose heavy...

I don't believe this is even remotely true. HOWEVER, I will say that when your racecar only weighs 2100 pounds and has a fast steering rack, you don't really care that much anymore due to the handling becoming so much better... but, besides that, these guys often bring the cars down to insanely low weights that are below the rules and then add the weight back in with weight ballasts in the center/rear of the car, giving much, much better weight distributions than any of these cars had from the factories.

Now, keeping all of the things previously mentioned in mind, think about how the longer wheelbase of a car like the S14 (longest wheelbase of the Silvias) or FRS/BRZ (much longer than even the S14) would aid the car's stability at high speeds and you start to understand why the F22C actually makes a lot of sense for a dedicated time attack car, IMO.

I've recently been considering trying to swap one into my S14... much more difficult than dropping in an SR20DET at first, but potentially much more cost effective in the long run if looking for a serious track car project!

[lukey86]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

More than anything I'm wondering what they did to get the engine to sit that low.

It's not the first time it's been done, and I may have been involved in a few projects, but the engine is particularly tall, and didn't fit well in the engine bay.

Custom K-frame perhaps? Seems they have the engine sitting almost the same as it does in the S2K, not a bad effort at all considering the lack of longitudinal space in the BRZ. I wish a 2J would fit like that

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

these guys often bring the cars down to insanely low weights that are below the rules and then add the weight back in with weight ballasts in the center/rear of the car, giving much, much better weight distributions than any of these cars had from the factories.

The weight is always, always added at the center of mass to reduce rotational inertia. It is, NEVER, used to "balance the weight distribution".

Thank about it from a physics standpoint. An unbalanced car with a smaller moment of inertia around the yaw axis, will still rotate faster than a balanced car with a larger moment of inertia around the yaw axis.

Another example. If you move the center of mass, and thus the axis of yaw, further back, it means when you turn the front wheels, they now have more leverage to turn the car. Hmmm.....

[Sideways&Smiling]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

The weight is always, always added at the center of mass to reduce rotational inertia. It is, NEVER, used to "balance the weight distribution".

Thank about it from a physics standpoint. An unbalanced car with a smaller moment of inertia around the yaw axis, will still rotate faster than a balanced car with a larger moment of inertia around the yaw axis.

Another example. If you move the center of mass, and thus the axis of yaw, further back, it means when you turn the front wheels, they now have more leverage to turn the car. Hmmm.....

But I didn't say "balance the weight distribution"...... I said they put weight in the middle/back and end up with a better weight distribution. I didn't say "balance" or 50/50 =P

And, yeah, I'd imagine it's much more often attempted to put the weight in the center, but I think sometimes moving it a little farther back might be desired considering how much weight you already have up front and whether or not you might want a slightly more rear-biased distribution to get better traction.

For me, besides the aero, I think the custom double wishbone suspension would be the hardest stuff to fabricate. It's so hard to find people in the U.S. to do that. I've been looking for people to convert the S14 to use wishbones for a while, and I can't find anybody except for people in the time attack scene in Australia/New Zealand. :[

[PeterFRS]

i don't know much about swaps and engine positions but damn that engine sits nicely right by the firewall...
for someone who has been cross shopping from AP2 - FRS this swap seems best of the both worlds...

[rice_classic]

So I just looked at the picture and tried to answer the question of "why?".

I came up with:

• Time Attack or Drift (I was right on 1 of them)
• Probably limited by displacement due to rules
• F22/F20 loves boost.. like... safe-400HP-on-pump-gas kind of boost. If you're limited by displacement but allowed boost is a very attractive proposition.
• It's a Honda Engine from the "Golden Era". Why wouldn't you want it?
• Why not just buy an S2k?... coupe, wheel base, steering angle benefit of struts (think drift).

[cdrazic93]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

The weight is always, always added at the center of mass to reduce rotational inertia. It is, NEVER, used to "balance the weight distribution".

Thank about it from a physics standpoint.

Oh lawd. Lol, also helps reduce any standard deviation from the roll center as well. Also not just the yaw axis, but the roll axis changes when you move the center of mass.

Opposite thought (the the logical mathmatical proof); putting weight near the ends of the car would require more torque from a steering standpoint.

[Sideways&Smiling]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

So I just looked at the picture and tried to answer the question of "why?".

I came up with:

• Probably limited by displacement due to rules

Nope.

[emirdtm]

It makes way more sense to go with a K20,K24 since you can get 250-300whp adapter plate for S2 trans and that's it but I guess F20-F22 is not bad either.

[jdmblood]

Damn I'm really intrigued by this swap.


when attempting to be the first person to do a swap, would I be easiest to contact wiring specialties to see if they can fan up a plug n play harness?

[NOHOME]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

Maybe to piss people off, or make them question the reasoning......

I once started a thread on the main FRS forum with the tittle " Would you prefer that the FRS had a "real" engine?

That was almost a year ago, still trying to put the flames out! Who knew that the boxer was a sacred design? Or is that sacred cow?

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by NOHOME

Who knew that the boxer was a sacred design? Or is that sacred cow?

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[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

Nope.

Well... they didn't all have to be right.

[jdmblood]

http://www.speedhunters.com/2014/11/...reators-theme/