Oil Starvation a Known Design Flaw?

[DarkPira7e]

Something that hasn't been brought up that I wanted to ask, specifically since you're in the NE like me- were you using 0w-20 oil? Or had you gravitated towards something heavier? I've seen a few oiling issues here in VT from WRX/STI owners who listen to forum posts about needing to use something absurd like 15w-40. The people suggesting it don't mention that they're suggesting its use in 90f temperatures. The fools keep this sludge in their car on -25f days, go screaming on the highway and wonder why they're plagued with oiling problems.

Just asking, since I'm curious. I'm in no way suggesting you're running diesel oil, I really just an asking to know

[MuseChaser]

Originally Posted by DarkPira7e

Something that hasn't been brought up that I wanted to ask, specifically since you're in the NE like me- were you using 0w-20 oil? Or had you gravitated towards something heavier?...

Although I've been doing all of my own maintenance for decades on my other vehicles, this one was purchased w/ a "Certified" warranty so I've been having the dealership do every bit of work in the car just to make sure there weren't any warranty questions in case of a catastrophe.. good thing I did!

I could go look at my receipts, but I'm pretty certain they always used 0w20. The Blackstone report confirmed that viscosity for the current sample.

[MuseChaser]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Let's get the perspective right on this. There are virtually no reported oil starvation issues of the 14+ model years. This problem is restricted to the 13s. Not even all of the 13s seem to be affected.
I am not going into the whole problem description again since people are probably sick of hearing it. The problem is evident and repeated so not sure why the trend is to attempt to search out some other obscure and mysterious cause. It was a manufacturing error for a period in 2013 and that is it.

Thanks, T. Hate to ask this, but would you mind posting a link to your previous descriptions of the problem and/or any changes they made in '14-forward to address it? I searched before even starting this thread, but came up empty. The tech confirmed that I will not be getting the new intake manifold, but has ordered a new short block, heads, cams, etc., along with a TOB and clutch at my request. The service manager could not confirm that the TOB would be the improved updated version, but said that "usually they were very good about staying on top of superceded parts." Is it your belief that the replacement engine I'll be receiving will NOT be susceptible to this issue as my original '13 was? Is there any possibility that the new engine parts they're using are NOS exact versions of my original, prone to the same issue?

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Let's get the perspective right on this. There are virtually no reported oil starvation issues of the 14+ model years. This problem is restricted to the 13s. Not even all of the 13s seem to be affected.
I am not going into the whole problem description again since people are probably sick of hearing it. The problem is evident and repeated so not sure why the trend is to attempt to search out some other obscure and mysterious cause. It was a manufacturing error for a period in 2013 and that is it.

I agree "starvation" seems to be resolved (improvements in packing application I suppose) but overall pressure hasn't changed AT ALL. Nothing has changed in the oil system. 65psi at redline just isn't enough. If you baby the shit out of your car and rarely see redline then you are probably safe. It's a damn sports car though it should be possible to autox and/or track the car without shortening it's life dramatically.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

Thanks, T. Hate to ask this, but would you mind posting a link to your previous descriptions of the problem and/or any changes they made in '14-forward to address it? I searched before even starting this thread, but came up empty. The tech confirmed that I will not be getting the new intake manifold, but has ordered a new short block, heads, cams, etc., along with a TOB and clutch at my request. The service manager could not confirm that the TOB would be the improved updated version, but said that "usually they were very good about staying on top of superceded parts." Is it your belief that the replacement engine I'll be receiving will NOT be susceptible to this issue as my original '13 was? Is there any possibility that the new engine parts they're using are NOS exact versions of my original, prone to the same issue?

No changes to the oil system have been made. All that has changed is they addressed their overuse of packing. There is an engine builder (Element Tuning) who builds race engines who has a top secret solution to the oil pressure issues that does NOT involve a larger oil pump. They have confirmed that they still see terrible pressure even on 2017s. They aren't talking about typically daily drivers though. They are talking about track cars where oil temps creep. The problem is even on public roads you can get your temps up high enough that pressure drops to unsafe for redline levels. I just don't find that acceptable. This isn't a Civic or Accord. It's a sports car. They should have shipped with an oil cooler or just a better oil system overall.

Here are some interesting threads about oiling:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63723
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131419

Edit: Forgot to address your question about the new short block. You will not be getting a 2017+ short block. It will be the old spec. I had the same concern as you when I replaced my short block. I was tempted to split the new short block and reapply the packing on my own to be 100% sure it wasn't over done. I decided against that and just crossed my fingers and threw it in. The parts of packing that could block passages to the mains can't be seen externally so it really is just a gamble. I suspect these replacement short blocks were built after the packing issues were addressed though.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

Thanks, T. Hate to ask this, but would you mind posting a link to your previous descriptions of the problem and/or any changes they made in '14-forward to address it? I searched before even starting this thread, but came up empty. The tech confirmed that I will not be getting the new intake manifold, but has ordered a new short block, heads, cams, etc., along with a TOB and clutch at my request. The service manager could not confirm that the TOB would be the improved updated version, but said that "usually they were very good about staying on top of superceded parts." Is it your belief that the replacement engine I'll be receiving will NOT be susceptible to this issue as my original '13 was? Is there any possibility that the new engine parts they're using are NOS exact versions of my original, prone to the same issue?

LOL My preaching is spread across probably 20 threads over the last 3 years. Think you probably read it in the recall issue discussion threads.
Quick summary. For a period the factory screwed up the application of the sealant. This blocked channels and lead to full or partial oil starvation resulting in spun bearings. The same situation is what has caused the mass failures in the recalled cars.

Originally Posted by ermax

I agree "starvation" seems to be resolved (improvements in packing application I suppose) but overall pressure hasn't changed AT ALL. Nothing has changed in the oil system. 65psi at redline just isn't enough. If you baby the shit out of your car and rarely see redline then you are probably safe. It's a damn sports car though it should be possible to autox and/or track the car without shortening it's life dramatically.

Who says the oil pressure is too low at redline? It was the design spec and I am sure they anticipated people driving at redline. There just isn't any data to support that the pressure is an issue beyond people's opinion.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ermax

No changes to the oil system have been made. All that has changed is they addressed their overuse of packing. There is an engine builder (Element Tuning) who builds race engines who has a top secret solution to the oil pressure issues that does NOT involve a larger oil pump. They have confirmed that they still see terrible pressure even on 2017s. They aren't talking about typically daily drivers though. They are talking about track cars where oil temps creep. The problem is even on public roads you can get your temps up high enough that pressure drops to unsafe for redline levels. I just don't find that acceptable. This isn't a Civic or Accord. It's a sports car. They should have shipped with an oil cooler or just a better oil system overall.

Here are some interesting threads about oiling:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63723
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131419

OK I will back pedal a bit based on what you wrote this time. Yes pressure at temperature could be a problem. A cooler will help that. Unfortunately they have to draw the line someplace. They didn't build a street legal race car they built a street car that can be tracked. If tracking that heavy that oil temperature is an issue then you have loads of options in the aftermarket.

[MuseChaser]

Originally Posted by ermax

...
Here are some interesting threads about oiling:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63723
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131419

Edit: Forgot to address your question about the new short block. You will not be getting a 2017+ short block. It will be the old spec. I had the same concern as you when I replaced my short block. I was tempted to split the new short block and reapply the packing on my own to be 100% sure it wasn't over done. I decided against that and just crossed my fingers and threw it in. The parts of packing that could block passages to the mains can't be seen externally so it really is just a gamble. I suspect these replacement short blocks were built after the packing issues were addressed though.

Thanks, Ermax. I read through those threads with great interest... and about 25% comprehension. Most of it is way above my head and skill levels, but the more I read the more I learn.. appreciated.

Also, thanks for the edit and response to the short block question. I'm assuming that, since the tech and service manager mentioned all the parts they've ordered (short block, heads, cams, oil pump, etc.), they will be assembling these components and not the factory. Given the situation, I have great confidence that he'll take his time and do the best job possible, but is this cause for concern? Is the fact that the new short block, albeit still a pre 2017+ version, is factory assembled enough to assure less likelihood of further problems? Your post, if I understood it fully, indicates that the oil pressure issues stemmed from packing practices in the short block and not so much from the issues surrounding improper sealant application during the recall or timing cover resealing. A fully-assembled short block SHOULD be a reasonable guarantee of better protection against wear going forward?

[MuseChaser]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

..
Quick summary. For a period the factory screwed up the application of the sealant. This blocked channels and lead to full or partial oil starvation resulting in spun bearings. The same situation is what has caused the mass failures in the recalled cars. ...

Soo.. not to repeat the question I just asked, but... if they're assembling the major replacement components of the engine on site, am I not once again susceptible to the same issues the recall may have caused?

Probably worrying too much.. there's probably so much pressure on the tech and the dealership that they'll be as meticulous as possible this time.. and there's no obvious evidence, at least to my eye, that they weren't the first time, either.

[chipmunk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

OK I will back pedal a bit based on what you wrote this time. Yes pressure at temperature could be a problem. A cooler will help that. Unfortunately they have to draw the line someplace. They didn't build a street legal race car they built a street car that can be tracked. If tracking that heavy that oil temperature is an issue then you have loads of options in the aftermarket.

If it was designed intentionally by the OEM to be tracked or redlined often, then an oil cooler would have come stock. Since it doesn't come stock with a cooler, then we have to assume that the car & engine are built by the OEM to meet the original intended purpose. One shouldn't have to go for aftermarket solutions if the OEM designed it to be run that way.

Yes it is not a street-legal race car. But it is a street-legal sports car.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

Thanks, Ermax. I read through those threads with great interest... and about 25% comprehension. Most of it is way above my head and skill levels, but the more I read the more I learn.. appreciated.

Also, thanks for the edit and response to the short block question. I'm assuming that, since the tech and service manager mentioned all the parts they've ordered (short block, heads, cams, oil pump, etc.), they will be assembling these components and not the factory. Given the situation, I have great confidence that he'll take his time and do the best job possible, but is this cause for concern? Is the fact that the new short block, albeit still a pre 2017+ version, is factory assembled enough to assure less likelihood of further problems?

They will be putting all these parts together yes but the short block as actually in two parts and stuck together with FIPG. There is a gallery that feeds the #5 main bearing that is known to get blocked if too much packing is used. So unless the dealer splits the block halves and reapplied the packing then you really have no clue if this gallery is blocked. I can only hope that these short blocks we assembled after they got their shit together on the packing issues.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

OK I will back pedal a bit based on what you wrote this time. Yes pressure at temperature could be a problem. A cooler will help that. Unfortunately they have to draw the line someplace. They didn't build a street legal race car they built a street car that can be tracked. If tracking that heavy that oil temperature is an issue then you have loads of options in the aftermarket.

I'll add that even the pressure at temperature issue may be overblown. I don't know that I've seen a mild to moderately tracked Twin that wasn't on R-comps or slicks or aero or F/I blow its engine due to oil starvation.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

Thanks, Ermax. I read through those threads with great interest... and about 25% comprehension. Most of it is way above my head and skill levels, but the more I read the more I learn.. appreciated.

Also, thanks for the edit and response to the short block question. I'm assuming that, since the tech and service manager mentioned all the parts they've ordered (short block, heads, cams, oil pump, etc.), they will be assembling these components and not the factory. Given the situation, I have great confidence that he'll take his time and do the best job possible, but is this cause for concern? Is the fact that the new short block, albeit still a pre 2017+ version, is factory assembled enough to assure less likelihood of further problems?

Keep in mind that those threads are for very modified racing engines. They need to address oiling issues on a level that a street or lightly tracked car don't even have to remotely consider. It is not even slightly reasonable to take those treads and apply them across all the stock or lightly modded engine cars.


Element Tuning even added that disclaimer with - "Let me remind you 325 racing slicks and over 1000 lbs of downforce"

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

OK I will back pedal a bit based on what you wrote this time. Yes pressure at temperature could be a problem. A cooler will help that. Unfortunately they have to draw the line someplace. They didn't build a street legal race car they built a street car that can be tracked. If tracking that heavy that oil temperature is an issue then you have loads of options in the aftermarket.

If it wasn't so easy to get your temps to 230F+ on public roads I would agree with you. I probably shouldn't get my temps that high on public roads but I'm a nut. Pick up a $10 BT OBD2 adapter and watch your oil temps when driving hard. You might be surprised how easy it is to cook the oil.