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Old 02-10-2014, 05:02 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by AVOturboworld View Post
I have to ask - do you know who actually makes the t518z? Because this post seriously indicates you don't. Greddy/Trust does not make CHRA's. There is actually only a handful of manufacturers that make CHRA's, even Garret's, and they supply everybody else.
I like how you don't deny my accusation of having a copy turbo.

There are some things I do know. How much things cost to make in China for one.

This will be fairly hard to most to accept, and you will certainly deny it. But I know your complete turbo kit would be costing at most $800USD, but I'd say closer to $500USD

Two main costings in a product like a turbo kit, cost of material, and labour. Your materials are cheap. Typical decent welder in US would get what, $30 an hour? The Chinese welders making this kit wouldn't get that in a MONTH.

Eight years ago I was bringing in gt28rs copy turbos, landed, for $200. Sure, they'd only last 5000kms, but the guys buying it knew it was a cheap turbo. I was only buying 10 at a time to get that pricing. But I was upfront with what it was, where it came from, and that it might not be all that great. Granted your turbos seem to be performing better they those ones did.

I currently bring in a 40ft container every 6 weeks for my own building supplies business. Things like post brackets and other fabricated/welded items, would cost $30+ to manufacture locally. We land them from China for a few dollars. But we're upfront with where things come from.

So I feel somewhat qualified in commenting on what your kit is costing you.

I'm not knocking business or making money. We're all trying to make money in one way or another. What annoys me is when mutton is sold as lamb. That's how I'd describe this kit.

People need to look at it this way;
I can get an AVO kit for ~$4000, that is all chang and cost less than $1000 to build.
I can get a US of JP made kit, for ~$5000, with certified materials, brand name turbo, that is probably costing that vendor/manufacturer $3500-$4000.

But hey, most people don't give a shit. That's why you've sold 150 of them.

Its also why every month we supply 50 new houses worth of materials, of which, all the structual steel, the ply, the LVL, the flooring, bolts nuts nails basically everything except for structual sold timber, comes from China. The hardwood comes from Indonesia. The softwood is Russian. Because all of those materials are far too expensive locally. Because the labour content is far too high. About the only thing left we could actually buy locally (as all the other industries have been destroyed by imports) is Australian hardwoods, that are sold as a premium, and some softwood that is grown only 1000kms away, that struggles to compete with timber that is logged and processed, and shipped from the other side of the world.

Now reply, saying I'm way off, and that I don't know what I'm talking about.
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Old 02-10-2014, 05:11 PM   #58
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You are indeed way off - our turbo kit isn't made in China. Really - it's made by our own employees at our factory in Thailand - http://avoturbo.net/. There are no "Chinese" welders. Our parts aren't being shipped in to the factory in bulk from China. Our welders, at our factory, are welding it together. On our jigs designed by us.

If you don't believe me, you are more than free to fly in and watch them make it. Terry can take you on the grand tour. See, we've never been secretive about it because we haven't had to be. We do a lot of diesel stuff there, we've done a lot of Ford/Mazda there (because that's the reason we originally moved the factory there).

Same goes for our exhaust systems, our intakes, even the suspension bits. See, we do a lot of things besides the turbo kit for the fr-s/brz, and we've done those things for a long, long time.

Why do you think you haven't seen our kits parts on ebay?

If we had had our kit made in China, it would be cheaper, no argument. And then we'd have to worry about quality issues, copying issues, and more.
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Old 02-10-2014, 05:19 PM   #59
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Well, I'll conceed that I didn't know that they were made in Thailand.
But labour cost will still be MUCH cheaper than elsewhere, just not as cheap as China.

I've never import anythign from Thailand. I do have a sattelite office in Vietnam though, that I expect would have a similar economy/labour cost as Thailand. We pay guys there with masters, $9k - $12k a year. The same guy in Australia or NZ would be getting 10 - 15 times that.

Your kits not being on ebay doesn't automatically mean they are decent. It means you control the supply.

Saying that you're not making them in China for fear of them getting copied, is the same as Rota coming out saying "beware of fake rotas"

It only takes one person to send your kit over to China. They have English speaking agents there to help you do this. But they take a huge cut, better to find your own way.

I'll revise my unit cost estimate upto at most $1200USD.
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Old 02-10-2014, 05:32 PM   #60
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Well, I'll conceed that I didn't know that they were made in Thailand.
Thailand is more expensive than Vietnam, and there are a lot more costs in our kit than you probably realize. The oil scavenge system cost alone would probably shock you, it sounds like. On the flip side, nobody has had a single issue with that oil system out of the 150 kits sold, and some users - and race teams - abuse the kit quite a bit.
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Old 02-10-2014, 07:34 PM   #61
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See below. Blue curve, E85 16 psi. Red curve 13.5 psi 93 gas.

Drift Office made 295 WHP at 10.5 psi so YMMV.

Hmmm.

Not sure if your chart is a good indication of what this kit can do with the same amount of boost, and if all things were equal. I say this because something doesn't seem right with your E85 chart you posted, based on this :

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That's the Shell URT 110 Unleaded @ 12-12.2 PSI @ peak power. With E85, you should be getting more (esp with 4 more PSI) as that outfit in UK has. I think it was >385WHP @ 1Bar? My peak TQ @ 12PSI starts at 4000, not 4400 like yours, but then again, I'm not at 16 PSI. But notice that I make MORE TQ than you do @ 4000 with LESS boost.

I can't say with any certainty if it's your tuner or not but I certainly can break 300 @10psi now with a 3 inch CBE. With a 3 inch TBE, probably more.

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I think the most I've seen it make was around 360whp or so on e85. So, it's up to you whether or not that is sufficient.
That's is of course, if E85 is available. And again, the UK company made more than that, name escapes me. I'd do it just to find out but I don't have any desire to go the E85 route... Then again, most wouldn't have consistent or convenient access to E85 in my locality anyway.

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I've beaten my car hard. 35 dyno passes in 3 hours. Sometimes 5 straight back to back to back. The dyno fan was way less than the amount of air I would get in from Canyon Driving.
David ~ you had the AVO kit on before. You didn't mention of all the abuse it got going to JV's session and assorted other tuners before you went with this other FI kit that you speak loads of - I'm sure there were more than 35 dyno passes with that AVO kit too was there not?

The first AVO kit was done a week before SEMA 2012, 14 hours back to back fighting with ECUTek back then, drove to LV and back, no issues. Again down to 86 FEST as well and back. My personal kit was installed and the car driven down to 86 Expo in Vegas in 2013 with the 110+ heat, and handed around to various attendees to try back to back and had no issues, even with the 91 Octane. Granted I did richen it up a bit...

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Originally Posted by buditjoenawan View Post
If you're tuning a big turbo that is on boost for a narrow part of the RPM band, then you only have to tune for that band. If you have a properly sized turbocharger for the motor and it produces torque over a large RPM band, then you'll have to tune for that entire band. Am I wrong? In my mind, tuning for a big turbo, you can leave the lower half of the RPM band alone and not even touch it.
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If it were that easy....
If VE doesn't change because of the spool, it's still pretty much the same right? Like the FBM kit, starts to spool at 3500 / 4000 RPM, what do you have to do below that? Granted timing and fueling strategies isn't 100% the same but it's not that drastic either... Sure, putting anything on like an exhaust and manifold will change the VE somewhat, it's less to do in that RPM range...

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ANY 86 with no cooling upgrades will see heating issues at the track, no matter if FI or not.
100% agreed. Here's the thing - we're all assuming that STOCK is adequate in itself yes? It isn't in some places. I was just in SE Asia tuning a bunch of GT86s, and it's the tropics! Friggin IATs / Oil & Coolant temps were pretty HOT even when stock. The AVO kit I did there yielded 231WHP on a Mainline dyno @ 6+ PSI. I wouldn't dare push more without supporting cooling mods.

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Fact is the AVO stage 1 turbo is limited in power output (MOST people will see WHP gains per $$$ to see what value they get out of power modifications). Fact is the upgrade path seems easier on other turbo kits (turbo location).
That may be true with your WHP gains per $$$$ ratio that you and you say others (aka "most people") subscribe to but I look at it at a PRICE to PERFORMANCE to LONGEVITY / RELIABILITY ratio. If I have to pay more to keep it reliable, so be it. Even though I've demonstrated that there's plenty of power to be had @ 350WHP with this "limited in power" setup, better response and spool times with comparable turbos, though we're not talking top end since I don't think we have the pump octane even @ 94 to make more than 350 WHP, and at a cost of raising the boost to get there and hence reducing reliability...

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My only point is, dollar for dollar, there are a few options out there to look at before setting sights at AVO.
Again if longevity and reliability is out the door, then yes, there's a few more kits to look at.

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My last point is that IMHO the quality of the manifold is suspect after seeing (and living through) exhaust leaks, turbo downpipe not mating to Overpipe and have read about others having the same issues on top of other minor annoyances. I never got more compensation for my troubles than... I'll look into it. Research and read and make the best decision you can with all of the info at hand.
Yes. please do. 140 kits were shipped out worldwide last year. 15 were done by us @ Drift-Office alone. Not sure about how many "others" there are but based on the percentages, that's a relative few. None of the balance exhibited the same problems or we'd hear more about them so depending on who installs these, your results will vary. Feel free to sound out to my customers from WA / Montana / Idaho / Vancouver BC - you'll find that they don't have any of these problems post install, leaks or otherwise.

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I don't think there is any data available that would suggest that these engines become unreliable at the 320-330whp level. I think that is at best an assumption.
You're absolutely correct James. I can't speak for AVO but I subscribe to a different philosophy personally - one that I impart on my customers and that is :

1) Fact : This motor was built for 170WHP / 200PS.
2) Fact : This motor was never intended for boost.

Therefore @ 320WHP, that's TWICE the rated performance, therefore acceleration of wear and tear isn't just TWICE as fast, it's progressively more. Being a business, there's a certain level of liability that I assume, and prevention is better than the cure in this case! So you're correct, there's no irrefutable evidence just yet. While there's no proof that this motor will or won't survive past 320 or more thru the years, only time would tell. Meanwhile, if there's a kind soul out there that would let test the limits of their engine, I'd be more than happy to push it, bit by bit...

I am currently running 12 PSI now, testing for longevity and until I get thru the summer this year (which will be about 9+ months thru the seasons to get data), I won't be convinced personally otherwise. But that's just my 2 cents!

Cheers!


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Old 02-10-2014, 08:58 PM   #62
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Hmmm.

I can't say with any certainty if it's your tuner or not but I certainly can break 300 @10psi now with a 3 inch CBE. With a 3 inch TBE, probably more.



That's is of course, if E85 is available. And again, the UK company made more than that, name escapes me. I'd do it just to find out but I don't have any desire to go the E85 route... Then again, most wouldn't have consistent or convenient access to E85 in my locality anyway.



David ~ you had the AVO kit on before. You didn't mention of all the abuse it got going to JV's session and assorted other tuners before you went with this other FI kit that you speak loads of - I'm sure there were more than 35 dyno passes with that AVO kit too was there not?


If VE doesn't change because of the spool, it's still pretty much the same right? Like the FBM kit, starts to spool at 3500 / 4000 RPM, what do you have to do below that? Granted timing and fueling strategies isn't 100% the same but it's not that drastic either... Sure, putting anything on like an exhaust and manifold will change the VE somewhat, it's less to do in that RPM range...



100% agreed. Here's the thing - we're all assuming that STOCK is adequate in itself yes? It isn't in some places. I was just in SE Asia tuning a bunch of GT86s, and it's the tropics! Friggin IATs / Oil & Coolant temps were pretty HOT even when stock. The AVO kit I did there yielded 231WHP on a Mainline dyno @ 6+ PSI. I wouldn't dare push more without supporting cooling mods.



That may be true with your WHP gains per $$$$ ratio that you and you say others (aka "most people") subscribe to but I look at it at a PRICE to PERFORMANCE to LONGEVITY / RELIABILITY ratio. If I have to pay more to keep it reliable, so be it. Even though I've demonstrated that there's plenty of power to be had @ 350WHP with this "limited in power" setup, better response and spool times with comparable turbos, though we're not talking top end since I don't think we have the pump octane even @ 94 to make more than 350 WHP, and at a cost of raising the boost to get there and hence reducing reliability...



Again if longevity and reliability is out the door, then yes, there's a few more kits to look at.



Yes. please do. 140 kits were shipped out worldwide last year. 15 were done by us @ Drift-Office alone. Not sure about how many "others" there are but based on the percentages, that's a relative few. None of the balance exhibited the same problems or we'd hear more about them so depending on who installs these, your results will vary. Feel free to sound out to my customers from WA / Montana / Idaho / Vancouver BC - you'll find that they don't have any of these problems post install, leaks or otherwise.

Cheers!


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC
I agree, my previous tuner might not have done a stellar job and I honestly without a doubt consider you the master tuner for the AVO kit. I know you have gotten better results and have recommended you multiple times to local customers in WA state. You are one of the few Ecutek master tuners that actually does tune.

To be fair, my AVO kit did not see 35 passes dded in between two dyno sessions. I did not talk about how the AVO kit took the heat like a champ, because I was not tuning the AVO kit and I did not control how frequent were the dyno runs and the tuner at hand took really sweet time with it. Nonetheless, I also did not mention it because I believe everyone agrees the AVO turbo location is great to keep that turbo heat away from the engine. I do agree with you, I could/should have made a point of it. Yes, the AVO kit is great a handling power. I went to the drag strip once (AVO kit and already water/oil cooler) and zero heating issues at all, not even a hint of them.

I will agree with you again that the AVO kit customer base is one really concerned with engine reliability to an extent and yes, we are doubling output at 320 WHP. But it is also true that the sudden rush of torque in the lower RPMS (3K something) is a strain on the engine components as opposed to a more gradual increase in torque. NO BASH at all on the kit. The power delivery and flat torque curve are awesome!! Just not a lot of headroom on it for later down the road with a built motor.

I again agree with you, 101-5 customers with exhaust flanges leaks and other issues with the manifold I'm not going to mention out of respect of AVO owners who shared privately out of 150 is rough 10% or less. Nonetheless, I still think its an issue and the customer service around the world on this manifold issues is mixed. Some have received a replacement manifold, others one at a discount, others "I'll get back to you".

Still, my experience does not have to be the absolute one or the norm, but I think its fair for everyone to know there is good, average and bad just like with anything else in life.

I post with nothing but respect to you and Paul. I don't mean to exaggerate anything, just what happened to me and what I have learned from looking at others.

Good night.
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Old 02-10-2014, 10:13 PM   #63
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I agree, my previous tuner might not have done a stellar job and I honestly without a doubt consider you the master tuner for the AVO kit.
You're too kind. We @ Drift-Office are more enthusiastic and passionate about the car than most I suppose. It's almost an obsession with me right now.

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Originally Posted by Sportsguy83 View Post
To be fair, my AVO kit did not see 35 passes dded in between two dyno sessions. I did not talk about how the AVO kit took the heat like a champ, because I was not tuning the AVO kit and I did not control how frequent were the dyno runs and the tuner at hand took really sweet time with it. Nonetheless, I also did not mention it because I believe everyone agrees the AVO turbo location is great to keep that turbo heat away from the engine. I do agree with you, I could/should have made a point of it. Yes, the AVO kit is great a handling power. I went to the drag strip once (AVO kit and already water/oil cooler) and zero heating issues at all, not even a hint of them.
Thanks for the clarification. It's greatly appreciated.

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I will agree with you again that the AVO kit customer base is one really concerned with engine reliability to an extent and yes, we are doubling output at 320 WHP. But it is also true that the sudden rush of torque in the lower RPMS (3K something) is a strain on the engine components as opposed to a more gradual increase in torque. NO BASH at all on the kit. The power delivery and flat torque curve are awesome!! Just not a lot of headroom on it for later down the road with a built motor.
In regards to strain, this is true and I agree. However, the argument you make is more for the likes of a SC kit, with linear boost as opposed to a TC. And what you're describing is inherent to most turbo kits on the market today. Even if you're to spool later, you're still adding stress to the engine regardless. Thus, in a FI TC kit, I prefer response over top end, but that's just me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportsguy83 View Post
I again agree with you, 101-5 customers with exhaust flanges leaks and other issues with the manifold I'm not going to mention out of respect of AVO owners who shared privately out of 150 is rough 10% or less. Nonetheless, I still think its an issue and the customer service around the world on this manifold issues is mixed. Some have received a replacement manifold, others one at a discount, others "I'll get back to you".

Still, my experience does not have to be the absolute one or the norm, but I think its fair for everyone to know there is good, average and bad just like with anything else in life.
The latter comment is very fair. Yes, there will be different experiences and people should hear them all. In all respect though, if I didn't say anything here, it would have appeared to be rather one sided thread since a bulk of comments didn't seem very constructive or positive - and the reason is simple : unhappy customers would be more vocal than happy ones. Remember the adage ~ When I do something right no one remembers, When I do something wrong, no one forgets! (Read : JV) Still, 3% with issues might be forgiving, but at least it's not "hit and miss!"

Now in regards to AVO and getting back to us about stuff - it's more of a process since most of the US kits are sold thru Turn 14 Distribution and any warranty claims have to go thru Turn 14 and their verified channel(s) before it gets to Paul @ AVO. This is also why I buy direct from Paul so all I need to do is deal with one person if I need anything. That and the fact that he drops it off at my shop personally. I will admit that other than a few fittings here and there in the kit, I haven't needed to warranty anything... yet. *Fingers Crossed!*

Cheers!


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Old 02-10-2014, 10:57 PM   #64
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I'll point to my own build thread for dyno charts. Keep in mind too that I probably had a pre-turbo exhaust leak the entire time during those sessions so bump all the graphs up... I should be making similar to spitfire at about 300 whp and 260 tq on 93 gas.

I have the manifold issue in its worst form yet (warped pipes not just flanges), and I can say that I am wholly impressed by the customer service I have gotten from AVO, and Pure Automotive who did the install. On the other hand I am wholly unimpressed by the distributor, who probably doesn't give a damn about warranties whatsoever (understandably, they make 0 $$$ on them...)

I have poured a lot of money into my car since I got my AVO kit and it has been a bit of a roller coaster, again read my build thread if you want the drama. At the same time, this has been an introduction to modifying cars for me, so all-in-all I think it has turned out fairly well.

I think the kit is entirely worth the money. I originally bought it with the idea of reliability and daily driving. It was perfect for that in its base form. After getting an accidental taste of some nasty power (nasty IMO, nothing like 400+ though obviously) I had a change of goals. I decided I wanted the most power I could reasonably use at autocross. I think it still fits that demand perfectly.

All in all I have no regrets and think the kit is totally worth the money (it's still one of the cheapest). Just have the manifold closely inspected and possibly machined before installation and you'll have no issues. I'm sure AVO is working on such a blatant issue at this point and won't be sending out more flawed manifolds.
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Old 02-10-2014, 11:29 PM   #65
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In all respect though, if I didn't say anything here, it would have appeared to be rather one sided thread since a bulk of comments didn't seem very constructive or positive - and the reason is simple : unhappy customers would be more vocal than happy ones.
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That is very true and I take the feedback. I did need to include all positives and negatives on my posts.
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Old 02-10-2014, 11:49 PM   #66
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@Suko

Eveyone got a opinion but you have to consider you own situation. What are you goals for the car and are the realistic with this kit.

I myself am turboed with AVO thanks to Bob and Bill @Drift-Office and have had no issues at all. I've very happy with the power and how it gets delivery. I don't plan to build a huge HP monster. I want to autox and track without worrying about heat too much. The only other local turbo FRS suffered from heat problems with a top mounted kit tho they had much higher hp goals and tracked way more that was more than enough to convince me. Right now my car does everything I want it to and makes me smile. What are you building and did you spend too much are question only you can answer.
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Old 02-11-2014, 01:01 AM   #67
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Right now my car does everything I want it to and makes me smile.
I also have to admit, with Mr Jay's 91-ish octane fuel in Canada plus that TOMEI 3 inch CBE, I was very surprised with the results and ALMOST* bought that single tipped exhaust that very night. No question, one of the best sounding AVO setups EVAR!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qnWxlPtzH8"]Drift-Office : AVO FRS / BRZ / GT86 Stage 1.5 @ 8 PSI ~ 276WHP w/ Tomei Exhaust! - YouTube[/ame]

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Old 02-11-2014, 01:43 AM   #68
nataku
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I also have to admit, with Mr Jay's 91-ish octane fuel in Canada plus that TOMEI 3 inch CBE, I was very surprised with the results and ALMOST* bought that single tipped exhaust that very night. No question, one of the best sounding AVO setups EVAR!

*Video of sexy car*

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I don't wanna send us off topic but holy crap that yellow looks good...
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:08 AM   #69
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Ask @vubaru about the Avo kit.
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Old 02-11-2014, 03:04 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drift-Office View Post
I also have to admit, with Mr Jay's 91-ish octane fuel in Canada plus that TOMEI 3 inch CBE, I was very surprised with the results and ALMOST* bought that single tipped exhaust that very night. No question, one of the best sounding AVO setups EVAR!



Cheers!


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC
@Mr.Jay that sounds fantastic! I have Avo Over pipe and Avo Catted front pipe so which Tomei exhaust package is that exactly? Asking as all other Tomei setups I've hear I haven't liked a bunch. Any drone in cabin? Sorry bit off topic ...
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