EcuTek = no resale value?

[DJCarbine]

Originally Posted by Toma

We are in North America. The world here makes sense.

If I but a tv.... I dont read the whole 10 page legal crap BEFORE I buy it.

I make the REASONABLE assumption that I can later resell my smart plasma tv without rendering it useless by removing its software or license.

Ditto if I buy a computer. I can resell without rendering it useless and having to pay microsoft again.

Ditto your Subaru. Its useless without its software and Subaru kindly lets you transfer the car and software to someone else at no cost.

Ditto Diablo, Cobb, SCT, Hypertech, bullydog etc

Pretty well everything in north America can be bought and resold. Its the American way.

So it is UNREASONABLE to do it ecutek way. And blaming someone for not reading the manual BEFORE they even have it in their hands.... especially all that lengthy legal crap is unreasonable.

The Shark Injector is the same way for BMW vehicles. If you try it use it on another vehicle, it will NOT work. You CANNOT sell it. You own the license, it is non-transferable and the unit is BOUND to the ECU in which you first flashed with it. I did the research before I bought it, so I knew what I was getting into.

When you start to make assumptions, you set yourself up for a bad time.

This is not a widely purchased consumer device like a TV.
This is a very niche market item. Its unreasonable to compare the two.

The "American Way" means that if you don't like it, don't buy it and instead research alternatives.

Do you know how many people realize that Vortech does not warranty a compressor if you start it below 25F ambient temperature?
Not a lot, because they didn't care to read/ask about the specific warranty information before buying.

[cnk]

Originally Posted by Toma

We are in North America. The world here makes sense.

If I but a tv.... I dont read the whole 10 page legal crap BEFORE I buy it.

I make the REASONABLE assumption that I can later resell my smart plasma tv without rendering it useless by removing its software or license.

Ditto if I buy a computer. I can resell without rendering it useless and having to pay microsoft again.

Ditto your Subaru. Its useless without its software and Subaru kindly lets you transfer the car and software to someone else at no cost.

Ditto Diablo, Cobb, SCT, Hypertech, bullydog etc

Pretty well everything in north America can be bought and resold. Its the American way.

So it is UNREASONABLE to do it ecutek way. And blaming someone for not reading the manual BEFORE they even have it in their hands.... especially all that lengthy legal crap is unreasonable.

You're right. We are in North America. . .where every year people get lazier and lazier and expect others to bear the responsibility for their decisions when things don't work out the way they expected. It's one thing if something was hidden from you prior to purchase, but it's not. All it takes is a few minutes of research. If you can't even do that before you decide to drop your cash on something, then the only one to blame is yourself.

[qoncept]

Originally Posted by cnk

You're right. We are in North America. . .where every year people get lazier and lazier and expect others to bear the responsibility for their decisions when things don't work out the way they expected. It's one thing if something was hidden from you prior to purchase, but it's not. All it takes is a few minutes of research. If you can't even do that before you decide to drop your cash on something, then the only one to blame is yourself.

If you want to justify ecutek's business model, why don't you quote us stats from platforms that have both ecutek and (anything else) support. No one is buying ecutek licenses for the WRX anymore.

[davisk6]

What I think you are confusing is the difference between tangible and intangible products. Software, by it's nature, is intangible. You cannot hold software. You cannot see software. It's simply electronic imprints. Businesses need a reasonable way to protect the investment put into their products. When dealing with tangible products, like the Cobb Accessport, they factor in the cost or production of the unit and the initial up front cost of developing the software, then sell the product as a one off. Cobb makes their profit of the initial sale of the device.

With software, especially software like EcuTek, where this is no tangible object associated with the product, companies will "license" the software. When you purchase a product like this, the company is granting you permission to use their work product. EcuTek is still the owner of the software, so you, as the licensee, have no right of first sale. The Windows analogy another person mentioned here is the same. When you purchase a copy of Windows, you purchase a license to use that software on one PC. Sure, you can sell the physical CD the product came on, but in order for that person to install and use it, you must "deactivate" your installation or Microsoft will force that user to buy a new license.

As it stands right now, this is the standard business model for software companies.

[DJCarbine]

Originally Posted by qoncept

If you want to justify ecutek's business model, why don't you quote us stats from platforms that have both ecutek and (anything else) support. No one is buying ecutek licenses for the WRX anymore.

Which means people can wait for other companies to release different tuning solutions.

They were the first names in the game, and they charge what they charge because they have the freedom to do that.

When a different company comes along and does it for cheaper with a difference licensing scheme, then go with them. Now THAT is the "American Way"

[Visconti]

Originally Posted by qoncept

If you want to justify ecutek's business model, why don't you quote us stats from platforms that have both ecutek and (anything else) support. No one is buying ecutek licenses for the WRX anymore.

EcuTek doesn't sell much in the WRX / STI market because there's a FREE Solution and Cobb.

And for a while they didn't have end-user cables..which sucked for everyone.

If someone wants features, they get Cobb.. if someone wants to be cheap - they go open source.

That being said I sell several WRX/STI licenses without any problems...

Tuned a 2013 WRX last night.. guy didn't want the expensive of Cobb but wanted Launch Control, Flat Foot Shifting.

If he went open source you have to pay someone to patch the rom for those features.. by the time you done paying for everything you might has well gone with EcuTek that has A LOT more features than just Launch Control and Flat Foot shifting... that and the fact you have to search for the patches. it's not worth MY time to do that.

It's certainly not for everyone.. but will once again become a another great option for the WRX/STI.. why? because EcuTek is currently in the process of updating most of their Subaru stuff.

I'm looking forward to installing a flex fuel kit on my 05 STi.. Finally I can just pump and go

John

[davisk6]

Originally Posted by qoncept

If you want to justify ecutek's business model, why don't you quote us stats from platforms that have both ecutek and (anything else) support. No one is buying ecutek licenses for the WRX anymore.

In this case, other products came out that were simply better. It's quite possible that EcuTek's business model hurt them in that market, but I think Cobb and the Open Source options simply had more to offer at a better price.

[DJCarbine]

Originally Posted by davisk6

What I think you are confusing is the difference between tangible and intangible products. Software, by it's nature, is intangible. You cannot hold software. You cannot see software. It's simply electronic imprints. Businesses need a reasonable way to protect the investment put into their products. When dealing with tangible products, like the Cobb Accessport, they factor in the cost or production of the unit and the initial up front cost of developing the software, then sell the product as a one off. Cobb makes their profit of the initial sale of the device.

With software, especially software like EcuTek, where this is no tangible object associated with the product, companies will "license" the software. When you purchase a product like this, the company is granting you permission to use their work product. EcuTek is still the owner of the software, so you, as the licensee, have no right of first sale. The Windows analogy another person mentioned here is the same. When you purchase a copy of Windows, you purchase a license to use that software on one PC. Sure, you can sell the physical CD the product came on, but in order for that person to install and use it, you must "deactivate" your installation or Microsoft will force that user to buy a new license.

As it stands right now, this is the standard business model for software companies.

Many people don't realize that they are not paying for software, but simply paying for the license to USE it

[Toma]

Originally Posted by cnk

You're right. We are in North America. . .where every year people get lazier and lazier and expect others to bear the responsibility for their decisions when things don't work out the way they expected. It's one thing if something was hidden from you prior to purchase, but it's not. All it takes is a few minutes of research. If you can't even do that before you decide to drop your cash on something, then the only one to blame is yourself.

BULL crap. I guarantee NO one here read the entire manual .... cover to cover for the last appliance they bought. There is a certain expectation of consumer protection in North America.

So when something does not adhere to the status quo, the onus is on them and not the consumer.

Alright. Points been made over and over.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Visconti

People need to realize that ecutek is no cobb accessport or Diablo..

EcuTek doesn't want their licenses to be resold and i really don't want my tunes resold.

I think it's funny how quickly people forget how lucky we all are a company like EcuTek is supporting this platform. If EcuTek didn't spend the time and money working on these cars this platform would be completely different !

It's not like EcuTek did simple ecu support and bailed on all of us after. They continue to update their product and stay on top of their game even when they have no real competition. Brzedit isn't competition .. That product is at a entirely different level, similar to the unichip, IMO of course lol .

John

Cobb is every bit as successful as ECUTek. I understand that you tune on several platforms where ECUTek and Cobb compete, and completely understand that you don't want your work resold.

Both companies must be doing something right to be this successful, right?

Personally, I prefer the Cobb model.

On a side note, Hondata uses the Cobb model, but the number of ECU marriages is limited. After so many "transfers", the unit bricks and can only be locked by Hondata. Not sure if Cobb does this.

I also believe that it's up to you, as the tuner, to educate your clientele on why they should not be sharing their tunes. We both know how even the smallest deviation in a tune can have devastating effects.

[Visconti]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Cobb is every bit as successful as ECUTek. I understand that you tune on several platforms where ECUTek and Cobb compete, and completely understand that you don't want your work resold.

Both companies must be doing something right to be this successful, right?

Personally, I prefer the Cobb model.

On a side note, Hondata uses the Cobb model, but the number of ECU marriages is limited. After so many "transfers", the unit bricks and can only be locked by Hondata. Not sure if Cobb does this.

Interesting thing that Hondata does.. Cobb doesn't do that.

I personally like the Cobb model as well.. makes customers happy..

EcuTek model right now is older, and honestly they thought about changing it.. but the way the software is setup with the dongle and license doesn't allow this to easily happen with A LOT of new work. Everything they have is integrated with everything.. databases - everything is streamlined a certain way.. They rather work on more pressing things like on-going dev work on cars... and idk maybe a handheld programmer which wouldn't have this issue to begin with.

But as a business owner, I think EcuTek's model allows them to generate more money , which powers their development team.

I've worked with several company's and EcuTek is absolutely the ONLY company that listens to a request and then acts on it.

Two weeks ago I told EcuTek their SD sucked.. btw, not for the first time.. Told them I wanted them to implement the the same stuff we have on the GTR now.. and that I needed it for a upcomign trip that coudn't be delayed. So Monday comes around and what's happening.. GT86 on the dyno testing out the new VE Based SD... Friday rolls around.. guess what's in my inbox.

No matter if your a tuner, mechanic, top chief - we all have tools and we all have preferences. I continue to support platforms EcuTek can support because IMO they have some really awesome tools.

And very much like BRZ, EcuTek will be first to market with Subaru DIT... why? because they've been working on it for over a year now and it's ready TO-GO.

John

[cnk]

Originally Posted by qoncept

If you want to justify ecutek's business model, why don't you quote us stats from platforms that have both ecutek and (anything else) support. No one is buying ecutek licenses for the WRX anymore.

I'm not trying to justify anyone's business model. You're missing the point. My point is that if you buy something without fully understanding what you're getting and whether or not that fits into your plans or not, then it's your fault/responsibility. There are other choices out there for the twins besides Ecutek. It's up to the consumer to do the research and base their decision on what fits their needs and plans.

[cnk]

Originally Posted by Toma

BULL crap. I guarantee NO one here read the entire manual .... cover to cover for the last appliance they bought. There is a certain expectation of consumer protection in North America.

So when something does not adhere to the status quo, the onus is on them and not the consumer.

Alright. Points been made over and over.

LOL. And you base that assumption that no one reads manuals before purchasing on what? Your own experience? I read everything before purchasing, including installation/configuration manuals for appliances, hardware, software. I read through the entire prospectus and all filings for my house before I purchased it from the builder. That fine print on the bottom of contracts, yup. . you got it. . .I read all of that before signing anything and if you don't, then you're on the hook.

That certain expectation for consumer protection does not include what you are trying to depict. That expectation is that the product will be safe for use for it's intended purpose and that the product will do what it states it will do.

Status quo does not alleviate your responsibility as a consumer and as an adult to know what you're purchasing. Or is what you're saying that since everyone in town buys drugs from person X that it's OK for you to do the same because if the cops arrest you, it's not your fault and the onus was on the drug dealer to tell you it was illegal?

[Nightbringer]

Originally Posted by Toma

We are in North America. The world here makes sense.

If I but a tv.... I dont read the whole 10 page legal crap BEFORE I buy it.

I make the REASONABLE assumption that I can later resell my smart plasma tv without rendering it useless by removing its software or license.

So it is UNREASONABLE to do it ecutek way. And blaming someone for not reading the manual BEFORE they even have it in their hands.... especially all that lengthy legal crap is unreasonable.

If someone doesn't feel like reading the forums or the manual, I can understand that. Didn't it give him a moment's pause when the SOFTWARE ITSELF prompted a "Doing this will CONSUME your license" prior to the flash? EcuTEK isn't being 'shady' about how this works, it's quite overt and stated in a MULTITUDE of locations.

As another poster stated, comparing this to a TV is missing the fundamental concept entirely. Tangible vs intangible. Like trying to resell, if you have to leave halfway through a concert, you don't get your money back. It's on you if you decide to leave. You paid for a service.

As you state, this is America. If their model was unacceptable, consumers and tuners wouldn't be buying in. The market has spoken. In ten years will there be a more affordable option? Almost always. If I have a $1000 IROC I'm not going to pay $1500 for a tune. If the market demand for what EcuTEK offers wasn't present, they wouldn't still be in business, much less expanding.

We all have our preferences here. I'm just pleased that we HAVE options from multiple sources dedicated to providing the best service they can for this community.