F/I Blowing motors facts

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Ram air is grey area.

Nitrous, while adding oxygen content, does not stop the engine from naturally sucking in the air itself.

Forced induction would imply that the pressure inside the manifold is above atmospheric, due to something forcing air into the engine, causing it to imbibe more air than it can on its own.

Since you're a drag racer, I can see why you would consider Nitrous FI; it's not "all motor". While excluded from "all motor", it's still not forcing a positive pressure into the manifold, the engine is still aspirating on its own.

OK I see where your coming from and its half correct and half wrong, I will explain my view on the other half I feel is wrong.


Nitrous is the F/I during the molecular level its at when it enters the cylinder in a stable form. When it vaporizes, nitrous oxide provides a significant cooling effect on the intake air. When you reduce the intake air temperature, you increase the air's density, and this provides even more oxygen inside the cylinder. creating a F/I condition.


Chemical F/I

[#maverick#]

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

He could push 600hp on E85 and a good build with his planned setup with a high boost big turbo. I don't know what his plans or gas availability is, maybe he wants to go 400hp and last 50 to 100k. So it hard to answer without knowing his needs.


You sound like me in it to win it personality not someone that's happy just to be there. So for you yes higher compression and not being afraid if it breaks works


Maverick what turbo do you run

Currently on a 5858 BB pte turbo with .82 hotside. With the motor build i will be switching to a 6466 with a 1.00 hotside. With higher compression you can make the similar power with less boost. Less boost is always better. Bro this isnt an evo 9 we are talking about lowering the compression that much and throwing a big turbo you will lag like a mofo. I dont know what your experience is driving high horsepower turbo cars but a 2.0 liter with that low of a compression is laggy as fuck. My buddys 9.0:1 evo 9 with a 6466 hits full boost at 6k pushing almost 50 psi to make a little more than the power im looking for. 25 - 30 psi on 6466 at 11.5:1 should put me at the power I want.

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by totopo

If you say nitrous is na, then yes, a 300hp fa20 on nitrous would need beefy internals just as much as a 300hp fi motor because the cylinders are seeing the same pressures.

The reason that na doesn't need as strong internals as fi is because you are normally limited by the amount of air that you pull in. You can make it as efficient as you want and there is still a max bmep that you cannot surpass. but if you are saying nitrous counts, nitrous causes pretty insane cylinder pressures, so the end effect is the same as fi. You get hp with more air instead of more revs.

Edit: of course that is assuming you are using nitrous ALL THE TIME. The fact that it is just sporadic makes it like a scramble button on a fi. It would be like if you normally ran super low boost then periodically ran short stint at high boost. Is the failure rate acceptable with that usage? Who knows

Very nice statement. thanks

[sw20kosh]

It's the tune.

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by #maverick#

Currently on a 5858 BB pte turbo with .82 hotside. With the motor build i will be switching to a 6466 with a 1.00 hotside. With higher compression you can make the similar power with less boost. Less boost is always better. Bro this isnt an evo 9 we are talking about lowering the compression that much and throwing a big turbo you will lag like a mofo. I dont know what your experience is driving high horsepower turbo cars but a 2.0 liter with that low of a compression is laggy as fuck. My buddys 9.0:1 evo 9 with a 6466 hits full boost at 6k pushing almost 50 psi to make a little more than the power im looking for. 25 - 30 psi on 6466 at 11.5:1 should put me at the power I want.

Im running a 10.5 comp T4 Split 6266gen 2 I start pulling in the low 3k rpm and it hits like a freight train! I cant imagine What 11.5 6466 would be like. I do want a ride tho


Edit: What are you looking to get hp wise

[#maverick#]

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

Im running a 10.5 comp T4 Split 6266gen 2 I start pulling in the low 3k rpm and it hits like a freight train! I cant imagine What 11.5 6466 would be like. I do want a ride tho

Nice! I want to find some one to custom make me a Vband twin scroll manifold. Who did your motor, also sleeve & Oring? Which rods? I was initially going to go even crazier and go 13:1 and keep it an alcohol only motor, but a few people who's opinion I trust a lot strongly advised against it!

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by #maverick#

Nice! I want to find some one to custom make me a Vband twin scroll manifold. Who did your motor, also sleeve & Oring? Which rods? I was initially going to go even crazier and go 13:1 and keep it an alcohol only motor, but a few people who's opinion I trust a lot strongly advised against it!

PM sent

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by VitViper

I'm familiar with AMS and their BCS systems. However, are you familiar with MoTeC? Better yet, the M1 series ECU's and their capabilities? The boost control capabilities of the M1 ECU surpass anything you can do with the AMS to such a level that the AMS system is "garbage" and no one with an M1 wants to look at that "trash". Let alone the ability to program your own custom boost control logic in on top of what is already available. Add to that the fact it's a premiere engine management system with unparalleled capabilities in the market....

And then there's launch control. And traction control. Which are not the same thing as boost control. You cannot achieve optimal acceleration using simply boost control. It'll never happen -- I'm not going to explain to you why. Why don't you just try it yourself.

So... tell me again why I care about AMS's boost control system?



Really, you can? Because the datalogs clearly show the ECU holding the desired amount of slip to achieve optimal acceleration from a stop throughout that whole video. But please, do continue, school me on my own car and my own EMS.

Or just continue to display this level of ignorance, it is quite amusing, to say the least, lol.

So you running motec on a stock motor turbo car. well ok Motec is good stuff in the right hands



I see your pissed and that's ok I will gladly come to cali this summer and we can go to the track and compare notes. I will gladly drive 1300 miles for you to school me on this

[#maverick#]

I smell a good old fashioned grudge race brewing!!

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by #maverick#

I smell a good old fashioned grudge race brewing!!

It wont be much of a race....

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

OK I see where your coming from and its half correct and half wrong, I will explain my view on the other half I feel is wrong.


Nitrous is the F/I during the molecular level its at when it enters the cylinder in a stable form. When it vaporizes, nitrous oxide provides a significant cooling effect on the intake air. When you reduce the intake air temperature, you increase the air's density, and this provides even more oxygen inside the cylinder. creating a F/I condition.


Chemical F/I

So does Ethanol, when it vaporizes, as does gasoline.

But, that's not how a nitrous system works. Atmospheric air has about a 21% oxygen concentration. Nitrous Oxide, on the other hand, breaks down into 33% oxygen concentration.

Furthermore, when Nitrous Oxide decomposes, the reaction is exothermic. In other words, when (2)N2O decomposes into 2N2 + O2, it ADDS heat to the intake charge (technically already under compression in the cylinder, and igniting). You confuse spraying liquid N2O into the intake tract, which cools the intake charge from evaporation, the same way fuel injection does.

The reason N2O adds power, is because it displaces atmospheric air with a molecule of higher oxygen content, which can be readily broken down to O2, and then combusted with fuel.

[CSG Mike]

Wait, is this going to a drag strip or a track? Because if it's going to a track, I'm in too

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Wait, is this going to a drag strip or a track? Because if it's going to a track, I'm in too

Definitely drag brother I have no business on a circle track.

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

So does Ethanol, when it vaporizes, as does gasoline.

But, that's not how a nitrous system works. Atmospheric air has about a 21% oxygen concentration. Nitrous Oxide, on the other hand, breaks down into 33% oxygen concentration.

Furthermore, when Nitrous Oxide decomposes, the reaction is exothermic. In other words, when (2)N2O decomposes into 2N2 + O2, it ADDS heat to the intake charge (technically already under compression in the cylinder, and igniting). You confuse spraying liquid N2O into the intake tract, which cools the intake charge from evaporation, the same way fuel injection does.

The reason N2O adds power, is because it displaces atmospheric air with a molecule of higher oxygen content, which can be readily broken down to O2, and then combusted with fuel.

Nos has a 1000 psi pushing it your not going to stop the cooling factor. And as we all learn in science class cold contracts heat expands. Nos is -127 degrees in a gas form. -127 degrees is super dense o2 with 2 molecules of nitric oxide per 1 of o2 (That's important). Im really trying here lol for example if I had a basket of laundry and I tried to pour the basket into my dresser drawer its not all going to fit. Now if I fold it it will all go in nice and neat. Unfolded being forced in to fit is a Supercharger, Folded is NOS. Its the same volume of clothes no matter how you get them in there. Think about a 1000psi and -127 degree working together entering the cylinder at 900psi. Compared to just sucking it in with a plain intake stroke. Then look at the product going into the cylinder super dense nos not hot o2. Think about the the explosion created in the cylinder.
Like a firecracker if you unwrap a firecracker it just fizzles if you compress the powder it will explode. The increased amount of oxygen & fuel in the combustion chamber results in the assorted molecules being more tightly packed than normal.

Does this help I don't know how else to explain that a more dense charge will (lack of a better word) weigh more than a less dense charge in the same volume.


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6wzTRLPDOc"]nitrous express at pri - YouTube[/ame]


its not just getting sucked in there its F/I


Either way you still have a chemical process that happens that Atmospheric air has about a 21% oxygen concentration. Nitrous Oxide, on the other hand, breaks down into 33% oxygen concentration. Putting 33% of oxygen in the same volume as 21%( N/A) takes some type of F/I whether its chemical(NOS) or Mechanical(turbo-S/C) its F/I
that creates a tremendous force on the rods.
I know you've seen nos cars blow the intake right off from a back fire in a video or somewhere that's not because of a standard 21% o2 cylinder charge. know what I mean, Your getting there but your just not all the way there yet