vs. 128i

[frumplejoon]

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

The back seats on the 1-series are pretty small, but there's definitely a lot more space back there than in the BRZ (you can actually sit behind the driver-- you don't have a lot of room to stretch your legs, but you can sit there comfortably enough for a few-hour roadtrip, where doing so in the BRZ would be absolutely awful). The trunk is also quite big (with the rear seats down we've fit luggage + a bicycle back there in a pinch).

tl;dr: The BRZ is definitely more of a sports car (lighter, less power, less practical and well-appointed), while the 135 is an extremely practical, fairly refined car that you can also squeeze a ton of performance out of. When hammering on the 135 you definitely feel the weight, ... It's also a very relaxed cruiser / around town car because of that torquey engine. It's a real multi-role vehicle, and I don't think you could go terribly wrong purchasing one as long as you can afford to configure it the way you want and keep it maintained.

Obviously the BRZ is a lighter, purer sports car, so if that's what you're looking for you probably shouldn't get a 135. That said, its not like the 135 is a land-yacht-- its only ~3200 lbs IIRC and it's not a big car-- about the size of an older 3-series.

I test drove a 128i and all this still applies. It's definitely a luxury car first, with capable performance but much less engaging to drive than the BRZ. The 128i tries to detach you completely from the road with an incredibly smooth ride, and although the steering was nicely weighted, it's pretty numb. It has more grip than the BRZ for sure, but when I broke it into a slide it was on 4 wheels with more understeer (didn't mess with SC) and some very crude feedback mostly through the seat. Not as nice as a gently sliding BRZ... Oh and then there's that oddly high seating position in the 128i.

1 series = luxury car that can go fast;
BRZ = sports car that focuses on driving spiritedly

From a cost of ownership perspective, a used 135i is still a step above the BRZ and a used 128i is just about on par (as long as you're willing to service/maintain the car yourself). New 1 series are in another bracket altogether...

But then again if you'd consider a used BMW, I don't really see the point to the 1 series when you throw in an early year E46 M3. Tons more grip, more power (compared to 128i), more practical, only ~150 lbs heavier (certainly didn't feel that much heavier when cornering), not as comfortable ride but more than good enough IMO (definitely better than BRZ), while still having the same ownership costs as 128i/BRZ. Now early E46 M3 vs. BRZ, that's a real tough one They're two completely different beasts and a toss-up depending on what you want.

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by frumplejoon

I test drove a 128i and all this still applies. It's definitely a luxury car first, with capable performance but much less engaging to drive than the BRZ. The 128i tries to detach you completely from the road with an incredibly smooth ride, and although the steering was nicely weighted, it's pretty numb. It has more grip than the BRZ for sure, but when I broke it into a slide it was on 4 wheels with more understeer (didn't mess with SC) and some very crude feedback mostly through the seat. Not as nice as a gently sliding BRZ... Oh and then there's that oddly high seating position in the 128i.

1 series = luxury car that can go fast;
BRZ = sports car that focuses on driving spiritedly

From a cost of ownership perspective, a used 135i is still a step above the BRZ and a used 128i is just about on par (as long as you're willing to service/maintain the car yourself). New 1 series are in another bracket altogether...

But then again if you'd consider a used BMW, I don't really see the point to the 1 series when you throw in an early year E46 M3. Tons more grip, more power (compared to 128i), more practical, only ~150 lbs heavier (certainly didn't feel that much heavier when cornering), not as comfortable ride but more than good enough IMO (definitely better than BRZ), while still having the same ownership costs as 128i/BRZ. Now early E46 M3 vs. BRZ, that's a real tough one They're two completely different beasts and a toss-up depending on what you want.

Stock for stock, I wouldn't really consider either 1-series as being a BRZ competitor in terms of driving enjoyment / rewarding dynamics. I'd say BRZ wins hands down. The thing is though that for the price of a limited (especially on the west coast where people are paying top dollar) you could afford to buy a used 1-series and replace basically the whole suspension and add an LSD. Do that and the 1-series becomes a completely different animal-- you still feel the weight of the car (that's unavoidable), but ours has really neutral handling: drive like an idiot and you can make it understeer, but it doesn't want to and you can rotate the car on the throttle very nicely. I imagine a 128 would be pretty similar, but you'd want to go for smaller / less-grippy tires all around to better match the decreased power output of the engine. If you could balance the grip level appropriately, the 128 might even be more fun than the 135, since it should have better throttle response.

As far as the E46 M3 goes, I can't comment since I've never driven one. By all accounts it sounds like a really nice car though. I've heard that the rear subframe mounting points tend to disintegrate though, which could add to your cost of ownership :\

But yeah, you're right. The BRZ starts as a focused sports car, where as the 1-series has to be made into one (and will always feel heavy compared to a true sportscar, even if it the additional power helps to offset it).

[stupenal]

Figured I'd update with my perspectives on the two cars:

Disclaimer - I've test driven the FRS twice. Just my initial impressions vs. the 128i I purchased recently

The FRS/BRZ and the 128i are two different cars that share the same basic mechanical setups - 6spd, coupe, sporty, and in the same price range (sorta). Everything else they go about differently. The boxer flat four is coarse, loud, and doesn't have any torque. The inline 6 is smooth, silky, refined, but doesn't really have a mean side to it (it doesn't "come alive"). The frs/brz shifter has short throws, feels notchy. BMW shifter is smoother, but you really row. The frs/brz suspension is tight, responsive, but harsh in that you really can feel the road, including all of its imperfections. The 1 series sport suspension is softer, at higher speeds it wallows a bit, but tries to strike a balance for everyday comfort while still being sporty. The interiors are worlds apart - frs/brz is no frills to a fault, you sit low and visibility is poor out the rear end. The 1 series is tall, dorky looking, and has just the right blend of "luxury" (its not really) with simplicity, assuming you don't opt for idrive/navi. Steering feel - it's a toss up. The frs/brz steering feel isn't that hot, when compared to the handling ability. The 1 series is still hydraulic steering, so it's eons better than the current 3 series and most new bmws with electric steering. However, it doesn't have the feel/feedback that I had with me e36 m3.

Ultimately, the decision came down to what I'm more comfortable with. I'm too old to be driving a car like the frs/brz where you're sitting super low and feel and hear everything on the road. I considered getting the brz and installing sound deadening in the doors, trunk, under the carpet. That's how loud it is inside the car - check out this forum and you'll see a good amount of members have done the same. The 1 series suspension can be upgraded to m3 bits that improve the responsiveness and handling. If only the 1 series didn't look so bubbly, and looked more like the upcoming 2 series replacement:

http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=841137

To sum everything up - the 2 cars appeal to 2 different buyers. Figure out which type of buyer you are and you'll know which car is right for you.

[chrisl]

Stupenal: did you get the 128 with the M sport suspension? Before I found my (used) Cayman, I test drove the 128i and the BRZ extensively, and I found the same difference you mentioned between the regular 128i and BRZ, but the M-sport package on the 128i really firmed up the BMW, and pretty much negated that difference. I still didn't like the lack of an LSD, but unless you were really pushing it, the BMW felt just as responsive as the BRZ (as long as it had the M-sport), though perhaps not quite as quick to transition between corners. As you said, the BMW engine is much smoother (though no more powerful feeling overall), and the shifter isn't quite as easy to use for quick shifts.

That having been said, I absolutely agree with your final statement. They appeal to two related, but definitely distinct groups.

[elbles]

chrisl, I test drove the 1-series (128i, 135i, and 135is) quite a few times before getting my BRZ, and even in 135is form (which is essentially the M sport package on steroids, IIRC), it just didn't have the athleticism that the BRZ has out-of-the-box, particularly in steering response (the Bimmers just felt like boats by comparison, to me).

I wanted to love the BMW. I wanted to have one instead of the BRZ, because by and large, it's a much nicer vehicle. But the BMW suffered from the same problem as my GTI--I liked driving it, but I never felt inspired to just go out and drive it the way I do the BRZ. At the same time, for the cost of a new 1-series, I could own a BRZ Limited and have enough cash leftover to buy a very nice E46 or even an early E90 to serve as a DD of sorts.

In any case, I just figured I'd throw my two cents in after a few more months of ownership (and after just looking at used E46s for when winter comes, ha). The statement about the cars being made for two different groups of people are spot on, but I certainly wish there was something in between the two.

[BioRage]

The only 1-Series I'd buy.





//m

and because limecar

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ5Jt09PS2M"]BMW 1-Series M Coupé Tuning - Irie Green - YouTube[/ame]

[stupenal]

Originally Posted by chrisl

Stupenal: did you get the 128 with the M sport suspension? Before I found my (used) Cayman, I test drove the 128i and the BRZ extensively, and I found the same difference you mentioned between the regular 128i and BRZ, but the M-sport package on the 128i really firmed up the BMW, and pretty much negated that difference. I still didn't like the lack of an LSD, but unless you were really pushing it, the BMW felt just as responsive as the BRZ (as long as it had the M-sport), though perhaps not quite as quick to transition between corners. As you said, the BMW engine is much smoother (though no more powerful feeling overall), and the shifter isn't quite as easy to use for quick shifts.

That having been said, I absolutely agree with your final statement. They appeal to two related, but definitely distinct groups.

I got the sport package, which is the same suspension as the m-sport package (just without the m sport bumpers and wheels). With a switch to lightweight wheels (17x8 BBS RK 16.8 lbs) and some non RFT (hankook v12s), the 128i handles much better and is a bit more responsive in steering. Of course, at this point, you can say the BRZ with wider wheels and stickier rubber would also do the same.

Originally Posted by elbles

chrisl, I test drove the 1-series (128i, 135i, and 135is) quite a few times before getting my BRZ, and even in 135is form (which is essentially the M sport package on steroids, IIRC), it just didn't have the athleticism that the BRZ has out-of-the-box, particularly in steering response (the Bimmers just felt like boats by comparison, to me).

I wanted to love the BMW. I wanted to have one instead of the BRZ, because by and large, it's a much nicer vehicle. But the BMW suffered from the same problem as my GTI--I liked driving it, but I never felt inspired to just go out and drive it the way I do the BRZ. At the same time, for the cost of a new 1-series, I could own a BRZ Limited and have enough cash leftover to buy a very nice E46 or even an early E90 to serve as a DD of sorts.

In any case, I just figured I'd throw my two cents in after a few more months of ownership (and after just looking at used E46s for when winter comes, ha). The statement about the cars being made for two different groups of people are spot on, but I certainly wish there was something in between the two.

Not sure how buying a new 1 series is equivalent in price to a BRZ limited PLUS an early e90. I did the math and a new 1 series via european delivery comes out to $29k and change, which is only a grand or 2 more than the BRZ limited.

The BMW 1 series is on it's way out (the new 2 series coupe looks HOT), and along with it goes the last of BMW's NA i6 motors and hydraulic steering. I wouldn't be surprised if idrive is also standard going forward (like the 3 series) so there goes the driver oriented simplistic interior. Hopefully others who are on the fence and leaning towards the 1 series will take action soon before it's too late.

[Demotic]

That ugly front-end tho.

[regal]

I considered a 128i sport over the FRS but no LSD is a huge deal breaker, I was looking at quotes of $5k to install LSD into the car. The BMW engineers are top notch and if they determined the car wasn't meant to have LSD that says a lot. I guess they thought its not a sports car or a sports coupe, just a European economy car.

[elbles]

Originally Posted by stupenal

Not sure how buying a new 1 series is equivalent in price to a BRZ limited PLUS an early e90. I did the math and a new 1 series via european delivery comes out to $29k and change, which is only a grand or 2 more than the BRZ limited.

The BMW 1 series is on it's way out (the new 2 series coupe looks HOT), and along with it goes the last of BMW's NA i6 motors and hydraulic steering. I wouldn't be surprised if idrive is also standard going forward (like the 3 series) so there goes the driver oriented simplistic interior. Hopefully others who are on the fence and leaning towards the 1 series will take action soon before it's too late.

I wasn't referring to a bottom-of-the-barrel 128i, but a well-equipped 128i (at least equipped with everything I wanted) was around $43k, and if you wanted to go to a 135is, you were getting awfully close to $50k, IIRC.

An early E90 might be pushing it, but a BRZ+E46 is awfully easy to do for the price of a new 1er.

[cal]

bump...

So now that the FR-S/BRZ has been out a few years, what are owner's impressions of their FRS/BRZ in terms of reliability (which was one of the supposed advantages of it over the BMW)? I'm now choosing between these two as well:

1) 2013 128i (m-sport, 6MT) with 29k miles , CPO warranty for another 3 yrs or 100k miles.
2) 2015 BRZ Premium, brand-new. 3/36k b-2-b 5/60k powertrain warranty.

Currently, both are the same price. Despite popular belief, the inline-6 in the 128i is fairly reliable, with the major issues being oil leaks (oil filter housing gaskets/valve cover gaskets, and oil pan gaskets) that start occurring as miles accrue (100k+ miles). Other issues would be the water pump/thermostat around the same time. Replacing those gaskets can be quite expensive, especially the oil pan one which requires the subframe to be removed. Quotes for that range between 1k-2k, since it's almost a whole day job.

In any case, having test-driven both cars, I liked both for similar and different reasons, but overall I was leaning more towards the twins due to reliability and the "new" car factor. However, after reading many threads here with issues such as throw-out bearings failing, CELs, fuel-pump issues, and some rod-bearings issues, I'm second-guessing my decision. I'm mostly mentioning the engine issues as these I feel are the most serious (I can "forgive" squeaks/rattles, crickets, taillight condensation, etc as these are not mechanical issues and won't leave me stranded on the road). Perhaps a lot of these issues with the FRS/BRZ existed on earlier years, but are these still valid reliability concerns on the new 2015/2016 FRS/BRZs?

[juliog]

Long term cost of ownership of the BRZ will be much lower.

[Jaylyons1]

I haven't seen too many of those issues you mentioned cal. There will always be one-offs here and there. Most of the issues I have been seeing were from boosted cars.

The 128i is a great platform. I'm just not a fan of the look. Performance between the two is debatable and I'm glad you mentioned that the I6 is reliable, because everyone seems to think otherwise which isn't true.

I've not owned a 128i but I have owned a few other bimmers and they don't seem to keep me as entertained as the BRZ for some unforeseen reason. I just ticked the 3 year mark recently and I haven't had a single issue that wasn't covered by a TSB.

I'm actually quite disappointed that I have to sell mine next month because it's been such a great car, but I will have plenty of other cars in Australia to keep me entertained.

[86Tony]

I have beaten plenty of 135i on the race track thise cars cant turn for shit