Got a track related question? I'll try to answer.

[jjaisli]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Don't underestimate sims.

I don't. And never did. I did a lot of laps in WGI, VIR and Road Atlanta in iRacing before I drove them in real life. I think you're reading into things that I wrote and drawing too many conclusions because of my specific complaints of Project Cars.

There are a lot of advantages to using a simulator that translate into the real world, even if you've never driven on a particular track, or even ANY track before in your life. You have to understand basic line theory. You have to have some idea of what it takes to get around a track, and quickly. You have to be able to think quickly, and critically, monitoring multiple senses of input. You have to be able to adjust and adapt while being precise. You have to be somewhat smooth. And you have to be able to keep track of cars in front of you, behind you, and potentially along side of you, while keeping up a good pace, while looking out for flags, debris, fluids, all while monitoring grip levels, brakes, fuel level, etc. All things being equal, if you spend a lot of time on a simulator before turning any real world laps, you're going to start off on a much higher level than somebody who hasn't.

What it can't simulate, and you've already pointed that out, is the effect of centrifugal forces on your body, combined with stress and fatigue. Along with an element of self preservation. And in the real world, you have to learn to incorporate and interpret g-forces through the 'seat of your pants' rather than through the steering wheel. Because of this, I think it's actually easier to turn more consistent laps IRL than it is in a rig.

But I've seen too many inconsistencies in Project Cars in the relationship in distance, speed, grip levels, etc, to ever trust it to improve my lap times. If you get to the point that you're really trying to gain time and fighting tenths, one should probably be using a custom simulator with data that can be backed up and correlates to the real world. The priority should be accuracy and not a marketing department's wishes of how many cool cars they can squeeze into the game.

[ysu]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I work with many pro drivers who are highly dependent on sims to improve their real world performance. I also know quite a few GT Academy guys, and I can guarantee that they can learn a track blindly using just a sim, and be putting down record pace laps their first session out in a well sorted car.

Don't underestimate sims.

Formula-E is recruiting drivers using sims right now; it has been proven to work.

Talked to instructors at TrackSchool - I'm doing some tracking with them. They said my lines are spot on (first sesson) did I run here before? No I said but I've practiced in sims. Ah, they said, people with sim background tend to be better to start with...

@jjaisli ; their priority is not your priority. It's a sim, albeit less accurate. To be honest, if "Indianapolis" 500 was called a sim, anything out there currently should be called a sim, LOL.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by jjaisli

I don't. And never did. I did a lot of laps in WGI, VIR and Road Atlanta in iRacing before I drove them in real life. I think you're reading into things that I wrote and drawing too many conclusions because of my specific complaints of Project Cars.

There are a lot of advantages to using a simulator that translate into the real world, even if you've never driven on a particular track, or even ANY track before in your life. You have to understand basic line theory. You have to have some idea of what it takes to get around a track, and quickly. You have to be able to think quickly, and critically, monitoring multiple senses of input. You have to be able to adjust and adapt while being precise. You have to be somewhat smooth. And you have to be able to keep track of cars in front of you, behind you, and potentially along side of you, while keeping up a good pace, while looking out for flags, debris, fluids, all while monitoring grip levels, brakes, fuel level, etc. All things being equal, if you spend a lot of time on a simulator before turning any real world laps, you're going to start off on a much higher level than somebody who hasn't.

What it can't simulate, and you've already pointed that out, is the effect of centrifugal forces on your body, combined with stress and fatigue. Along with an element of self preservation. And in the real world, you have to learn to incorporate and interpret g-forces through the 'seat of your pants' rather than through the steering wheel. Because of this, I think it's actually easier to turn more consistent laps IRL than it is in a rig.

But I've seen too many inconsistencies in Project Cars in the relationship in distance, speed, grip levels, etc, to ever trust it to improve my lap times. If you get to the point that you're really trying to gain time and fighting tenths, one should probably be using a custom simulator with data that can be backed up and correlates to the real world. The priority should be accuracy and not a marketing department's wishes of how many cool cars they can squeeze into the game.

While I can't afford it, there are 5 axis sims out here that can simulate that.

[jjaisli]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

While I can't afford it, there are 5 axis sims out here that can simulate that.

Most people can't afford them. For the price of one, you could buy a decent E36 race car with enough money left over a seasons worth of track time and a half dozen days with a qualified driving coach. Depending on their rates.

Originally Posted by ysu

Talked to instructors at TrackSchool - I'm doing some tracking with them. They said my lines are spot on (first sesson) did I run here before? No I said but I've practiced in sims. Ah, they said, people with sim background tend to be better to start with...

@jjaisli ; their priority is not your priority. It's a sim, albeit less accurate. To be honest, if "Indianapolis" 500 was called a sim, anything out there currently should be called a sim, LOL.

I don't disagree with any of this. Especially in the beginning. As I stated in my post, there are a lot of advantages to sims. There's much to be said for showing up at a track you've never been to before and already knowing the line. But as your experience progresses and the more laps you do on a particular track, the smaller the returns you'll gain from a simulator. At least let's say, a commercial level product that's really designed more for entertainment.

I'll give you a specific example. The Downhill at Lime Rock.




The key to Turn 7 is a slightly late apex and then clipping that apex with your right tires, just kissing the curb and then letting the car just naturally track out. Hit it just right and there's a significant amount of compression and camber through that slot that you can't easily see from inside the car. Even walking the track you have to look carefully, just because of the angle of the hill and corner. You kind of have to get down on your knees and look at it from the right angle to see it. But hit it just right, very precisely, and that compression allows you to take that corner quicker and with more grip & composure than you otherwise could. When you drive the track, this becomes readily apparent (when you get it right). If you hit that mark, repeatedly, you'll naturally start to pick up speed, getting into the throttle earlier and harder. But it demands precision. Get it wrong, even just a foot off at the same speed and you'll likely have a very white knuckle moment as you get spit out onto the grass at track out on the main straight. A lot of people who do end up into the wall on the opposite side.

Even what I consider to be the best commercial simulator out there, iRacing, doesn't quite get this compression and the affects it has on grip and composure, quite right. To be fair, the relationship between grip and track camber and compression, along with suspension movement and slip angle, is highly complex. And it results in a LOT of 0 & 1 floating back and forth in real time.

This is just one example, out of dozens that I could think of, and it's why I say that commercial grade simulators are a great and important tool to learning a track. But if you're really using it to narrow down your lines and whittle away 10ths, you better be using something that's as accurate as possible. Something like Project Cars is a very effective took for learning the layout. More than that, not from where I'm sitting. It does an even worse job with the effects of loading and unloading and at tracks like WGI where half the corners on the track are all about compression and camber, so you can see where it's leading from my perspective.

All that said, yes, if I'm heading to a track, I always try and spend a little time in my rig first, just to freshen up. And I think it helps.

[MaximeT]

Tracks are more or less challenging for the physics engine.

Lime Rock is pretty hard, and that last turn is very hard to drive in sim.

Watkins Glen is probably the less challenging and always feels very real.

[Takumi788]

I don't mean to derail this sim topic but:

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I street drive on RC1's year round.

Really!? I drive my car less than 75 miles a week on the street, then to and from track days (anywhere from 1-5 hour drive. At least 1 track day a month). The RC1's will handle this sort of driving? Will they still be soft and sticky on track days? I always assumed they were track tires only.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Takumi788

I don't mean to derail this sim topic but:



Really!? I drive my car less than 75 miles a week on the street, then to and from track days (anywhere from 1-5 hour drive. At least 1 track day a month). The RC1's will handle this sort of driving? Will they still be soft and sticky on track days? I always assumed they were track tires only.

Unless you run an exceptionally aggressive alignment, absolutely. They're DOT, and rated 100TW; you won't wear them much on the street, and you shouldn't be heat cycling them at all unless as previously stated, you run a VERY aggressively alignment.

This is an all-purpose track topic. It's been all over the place, and you're not derailing it at all

[Jonsey]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Unless you run an exceptionally aggressive alignment, absolutely. They're DOT, and rated 100TW; you won't wear them much on the street, and you shouldn't be heat cycling them at all unless as previously stated, you run a VERY aggressively alignment.

This is an all-purpose track topic. It's been all over the place, and you're not derailing it at all

Out of curiosity, what qualifies as an "exceptionally aggressive alignment"?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Jonsey

Out of curiosity, what qualifies as an "exceptionally aggressive alignment"?

Lots of toe. Like 1/4" in or out. People actually do that...

[jjaisli]

Originally Posted by Takumi788

I don't mean to derail this sim topic but:



Really!? I drive my car less than 75 miles a week on the street, then to and from track days (anywhere from 1-5 hour drive. At least 1 track day a month). The RC1's will handle this sort of driving? Will they still be soft and sticky on track days? I always assumed they were track tires only.

Having lived both in the Northeast and SCA (where Mike is), I think the one important difference not actually discussed is the weather. It's kind of obvious and I'm sure you're aware of this, but just to say it, I would only keep them mounted between May and October. Once the temperature hits freezing overnight, it's trouble. There are varying opinions of the effect that sub 32*F temperatures have on aggressive rubber, but I believe it's better to just keep them in a cool, dry place (like a basement) over the winter.

That said, it's one thing to keep aggressive 100TW tires mounted and daily drive them. I mean, you CAN. But if you're ALSO using them as your track tires and you want to get the most out of them on the track, I still say it's better to swap them out. I agree with Mike that with only 75 miles per week, the wear will be negligible on the street. But you're still always at risk of hitting potholes or driving over screws, or debris etc. I always hated changing tires at the track. I know I'm going to sound like a real lazy bum but it's such a hassle. But I usually did it because I was scared that I would end up with a flat.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by jjaisli

Having lived both in the Northeast and SCA (where Mike is), I think the one important difference not actually discussed is the weather. It's kind of obvious and I'm sure you're aware of this, but just to say it, I would only keep them mounted between May and October. Once the temperature hits freezing overnight, it's trouble. There are varying opinions of the effect that sub 32*F temperatures have on aggressive rubber, but I believe it's better to just keep them in a cool, dry place (like a basement) over the winter.

That said, it's one thing to keep aggressive 100TW tires mounted and daily drive them. I mean, you CAN. But if you're ALSO using them as your track tires and you want to get the most out of them on the track, I still say it's better to swap them out. I agree with Mike that with only 75 miles per week, the wear will be negligible on the street. But you're still always at risk of hitting potholes or driving over screws, or debris etc. I always hated changing tires at the track. I know I'm going to sound like a real lazy bum but it's such a hassle. But I usually did it because I was scared that I would end up with a flat.

I take the spare out of the car and take spare wheels/tires to the track as my "flat tire insurance".

I also recommend that everyone get a AAA memebership, and upgrade to Plus or Premium as soon as you are eligible.

[peaches]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I take the spare out of the car and take spare wheels/tires to the track as my "flat tire insurance".



I also recommend that everyone get a AAA memebership, and upgrade to Plus or Premium as soon as you are eligible.

Do some research though, I had AAA Premium and dropped them after they refused to tow my car. Wrecked it at Mid Ohio, they refused service (after the truck got there) because the car had been on track. Had to pay someone to tow the car back to Cleveland.


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[Takumi788]

Originally Posted by jjaisli

Having lived both in the Northeast and SCA (where Mike is), I think the one important difference not actually discussed is the weather. It's kind of obvious and I'm sure you're aware of this, but just to say it, I would only keep them mounted between May and October. Once the temperature hits freezing overnight, it's trouble. There are varying opinions of the effect that sub 32*F temperatures have on aggressive rubber, but I believe it's better to just keep them in a cool, dry place (like a basement) over the winter.

I am aware of the weather and that soft compound tires should be stored in a cool, dry place. My car is in my heated shop all year. I was more wondering if I would have any tire left by the time I drove from CNY to NJMP (5 hour drive) on RC1s. I am going to try to purchase another set of wheels and tires but it is good to know I can drive on the RC1s if need be. Thanks for the help.

[Pat]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I also recommend that everyone get a AAA memebership, and upgrade to Plus or Premium as soon as you are eligible.

For what it's worth many regular auto insurance policies include free towing. I've used mine a few times and it works great. No charge and no increase in premiums. Check your existing policy before spending extra money on something you may already have.