Article posted on the valve recall engine murders

[maslin]

Originally Posted by Leonardo

Nice to see you too! Yeah no worries! Anytime is good.



My car is currently at lithia springfield for the recall... They said my car was going to be number 6 that they had done.

We had one done, a red ‘13 with 6000 miles. Traded in with the recall notice on the front seat

It’s been driven a whole 4 or so miles from Toyota back to our lot. Not sure who did it, probably Kendall. No problems so far!

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by why?

This is 100% not accurate on a boxer engine. Many people say once you open a boxer engine for the first time, it is never the same again.

Because no one has ever built a boxer engine before...............
I used to hear this about rotories all the time too.

I think they could have designed the cover and mating surface to be more assembly friendly. A wider sealing surface with a channel would have been less prone to the over application issue. Though I still can't believe the size of the bead they recommend you use in the service manual. On motorcycle cases you put a super thin layer on both halves, of course they were not designed to run for 100k miles without being torn apart.

[Tgutz21]

Originally Posted by CraigVM

Test Drive ? picked mine up this morning and checked the odometer vs. that they recorded when I dropped it off. They did not even add a mile ....

I should’ve done that when I pickup/dropped off the car too. Not that it would have made a difference. It either would have blown up on them or me. Luckily I wasn’t far from the dealer when it happened. Now I still don’t have my car back after 3 weeks and this was just supposed to be a 12 hour job.

[why?]

Originally Posted by ermax

No he means they aren’t. The heads aren’t removed and the block halves aren’t split. All they do is remove the timing cover, valve covers, cam caps and then cams and rockers.

No, because they are offering "head gasket replacements" with this to get money and that requires it. If forum members are reporting this, how many people not on this board are getting offered this and thinking it is a good idea?

So again, they should not be for this recall, and absolutely no one should let them, but that does not mean it is not happening, because dealerships are greedy and obviously far too stupid.

[why?]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Because no one has ever built a boxer engine before...............
I used to hear this about rotories all the time too.

I think they could have designed the cover and mating surface to be more assembly friendly. A wider sealing surface with a channel would have been less prone to the over application issue. Though I still can't believe the size of the bead they recommend you use in the service manual. On motorcycle cases you put a super thin layer on both halves, of course they were not designed to run for 100k miles without being torn apart.

No, because Toyota techs in general don't deal with boxer engines. Just like I wouldn't expect an Arby's to make me a burger, but McDonald's does it constantly.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by why?

No, because Toyota techs in general don't deal with boxer engines. Just like I wouldn't expect an Arby's to make me a burger, but McDonald's does it constantly.

Just asking here, I really don't know -

Do any dealership automobile technicians normally deal with taking engines apart and putting them back together, anymore?

Anybody?

Or do they just tune them and replace things on the outside of the engine?


humfrz

[maslin]

Originally Posted by humfrz

Just asking here, I really don't know -

Do any dealership automobile technicians normally deal with taking engines apart and putting them back together, anymore?

Anybody?

Or do they just tune them and replace things on the outside of the engine?


humfrz

I’m at a popular German brand, we do everything. There isn’t really any tuning anymore, everything tunes itself.

If something comes apart in the engine you’re usually replacing it. There no reliable way to get all the bearing material and metal out. We do rods and pistons in a v6 and i4 for noise. Timing chains all the time. Heads when they wear or gall a cam journal.

The stuff on the outside fails a whole lot more. Accessories, seals, turbos, manifolds, that kind of stuff. Shops still work on engines, that’s part of the game.

Edit: Modern engines are easier to build that the old ones. No ring gap to check, no plastiguage, no cork gaskets. You order parts and put them together, then you have an engine.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by maslin

I’m at a popular German brand, we do everything. There isn’t really any tuning anymore, everything tunes itself.

If something comes apart in the engine you’re usually replacing it. There no reliable way to get all the bearing material and metal out. We do rods and pistons in a v6 and i4 for noise. Timing chains all the time. Heads when they wear or gall a cam journal.

The stuff on the outside fails a whole lot more. Accessories, seals, turbos, manifolds, that kind of stuff. Shops still work on engines, that’s part of the game.

Edit: Modern engines are easier to build that the old ones. No ring gap to check, no plastiguage, no cork gaskets. You order parts and put them together, then you have an engine.

Thanks for the feedback.

Plastigauge, that reminds me of the first large engine I overhauled. It was a 6 cylinder gas Oliver tractor, 1937 model year. I put the new rod bearings in, tightened down the rod caps good-n-tight, buttoned that sucker up, went to start it, hand crank mind you, and the engine wouldn't turn over.

So, since my dad was going to town, I caught a ride and stopped off at the NAPA store and told them the story and that they must have given me the wring size bearings. The old boy just grinned and asked if I had "gauged" the bearing space. After my puzzled look, he grinned and gave me some red plastic string looking stuff a gauge and some rod cap shims.

(that was waaay before the internet - )


humfrz

[maslin]

Originally Posted by humfrz

Thanks for the feedback.

Plastigauge, that reminds me of the first large engine I overhauled. It was a 6 cylinder gas Oliver tractor, 1937 model year. I put the new rod bearings in, tightened down the rod caps good-n-tight, buttoned that sucker up, went to start it, hand crank mind you, and the engine wouldn't turn over.

So, since my dad was going to town, I caught a ride and stopped off at the NAPA store and told them the story and that they must have given me the wring size bearings. The old boy just grinned and asked if I had "gauged" the bearing space. After my puzzled look, he grinned and gave me some red plastic string looking stuff a gauge and some rod cap shims.

(that was waaay before the internet - )


humfrz

I’ve plastigauged one engine in 15 years. Following a top secret bulletin to oversize only the top half of the main bearings for a knock on warm restart.

Sketchy stuff. But it fixed the knock.

Even then, we didn’t need to gauge it, they just wanted a number. Blocks are marked, cranks are marked, match them up for a color and order parts. We ordered two sets of bearings and combined them. It was well shy of the minimum clearance when we were done, never saw it come back.

[x808drifter]

Originally Posted by maslin

I’m at a popular German brand, we do everything. There isn’t really any tuning anymore, everything tunes itself.

If something comes apart in the engine you’re usually replacing it. There no reliable way to get all the bearing material and metal out. We do rods and pistons in a v6 and i4 for noise. Timing chains all the time. Heads when they wear or gall a cam journal.

The stuff on the outside fails a whole lot more. Accessories, seals, turbos, manifolds, that kind of stuff. Shops still work on engines, that’s part of the game.

Edit: Modern engines are easier to build that the old ones. No ring gap to check, no plastiguage, no cork gaskets. You order parts and put them together, then you have an engine.

[CraigVM]

I was so hoping mine would be one of the "success - no problem" recall stories.

After seeing that many of the after recall work issues take place a few miles down the road, I went for a casual drive and found after roughly an hour of road time, my check engine light came on.
My after market HU utilizes a iDatalink / Maestro so was able to see that it was a P0441 code which I quickly googled finding it to be just an EVAP issue so drove home.... after making certain my gas cap was snug.

I then plugged in a OBD Link and pulled up additional details of P0441 confirmed and P0455 pending. Most interesting is it showed the miles traveled since the DTC had been cleared. I subtracted those 43 miles from the current odometer reading and the results are the odometer reading documented as the "mileage out" on the recall paperwork.

I did request they try and program a couple of aftermarket chip keys for me which they stated they had tried but could not program. Perhaps their plugging in Techstream for key programming explains the DTC being cleared ... ???

Hoping it is something as simple as a loose / disconnected hose or sensor.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by CraigVM

I was so hoping mine would be one of the "success - no problem" recall stories.



After seeing that many of the after recall work issues take place a few miles down the road, I went for a casual drive and found after roughly an hour of road time, my check engine light came on.

My after market HU utilizes a iDatalink / Maestro so was able to see that it was a P0441 code which I quickly googled finding it to be just an EVAP issue so drove home.... after making certain my gas cap was snug.



I then plugged in a OBD Link and pulled up additional details of P0441 confirmed and P0455 pending. Most interesting is it showed the miles traveled since the DTC had been cleared. I subtracted those 43 miles from the current odometer reading and the results are the odometer reading documented as the "mileage out" on the recall paperwork.



I did request they try and program a couple of aftermarket chip keys for me which they stated they had tried but could not program. Perhaps their plugging in Techstream for key programming explains the DTC being cleared ... ???



Hoping it is something as simple as a loose / disconnected hose or sensor.

Techstream doesn’t clear DTCs unless you tell it too. Not when programming a remote or chip either. EVAP problems should be easy to solve. Consider yourself lucky.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by why?

No, because they are offering "head gasket replacements" with this to get money and that requires it. If forum members are reporting this, how many people not on this board are getting offered this and thinking it is a good idea?

So again, they should not be for this recall, and absolutely no one should let them, but that does not mean it is not happening, because dealerships are greedy and obviously far too stupid.

I haven't seen anyone post about having an offer to do headgaskets too... valve cover gaskets are included in the work already though, maybe someone just said the wrong gasket?


And again, the big deal with Subaru engines is splitting the block in half, not pulling heads. Most of that stems from shops not following proper procedure on reassembly too, not because boxers are magically sealed at the factory.

[why?]

Originally Posted by wparsons

I haven't seen anyone post about having an offer to do headgaskets too... valve cover gaskets are included in the work already though, maybe someone just said the wrong gasket?


And again, the big deal with Subaru engines is splitting the block in half, not pulling heads. Most of that stems from shops not following proper procedure on reassembly too, not because boxers are magically sealed at the factory.

I agree with you. The headgasket thing was mentioned in one of these threads. I feel you are putting far too much trust in these technicians, and we've seen what has happened. There is a chance now that they've repeatedly stressed who should do this stuff that it won't happen again, but I just don't think any of these people are worth trusting at the moment.

All the issues that come from the boxer engine are totally about people unfamiliar with them and screwing them up because they refuse to take the time and handle it like they should.

Originally Posted by humfrz

Just asking here, I really don't know -

Do any dealership automobile technicians normally deal with taking engines apart and putting them back together, anymore?

Anybody?

Or do they just tune them and replace things on the outside of the engine?


humfrz

What is an easy job in a normal 4 cylinder is much much harder in a boxer. Think of how every procedure on an Audi starts with removal of the engine, and how that overcomplicates everything. In different ways that is the same thing that happens with a boxer. The manuals say to remove the engine for something as simple as a spark plug change. Everything is just more complicated on a boxer, and it just means the techs need to double check everything and take their time. Unfortunately that is not a common thing in a dealership because of the pay structure.