Innovate SC Install, Testing & Tuning

[cmss2000]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

Anyone who doesn't know that much shouldn't be in the FI section.

Simmons this is your car? I'd never figure that given your affinity for autocross.

I think this is Mike's personal car. Look at the stock engine bay in the first pic. Even has stock strut bars, intake sound generator and battery.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by cmss2000

I think this is Mike's personal car. Look at the stock engine bay in the first pic. Even has stock strut bars and noise generator.

Ah, no Raceseng camber plates or pulleys either. Good catch.

[1QWKBRZ]

Nice numbers Mike, thanks for sharing the data. This kit is looking great for the price.

[Drift-Office]

Originally Posted by xxscaxx

I can't figure out if Bob @Drift-Office is for or against this kit.. lol.

Disclaimer : Not here to flame, but just to post my thoughts.

For the record, I'm FOR this kit generally speaking. The problem is, some people are making this out to be the magical unicorn that it's not. It's a great product with lots of promise ~ ease of installation, delivery of power.

However, that comes at a cost of heat, in which is an issue for 91 Octane users and anyone planning to do more than a couple of pulls on the street. So what do people do? Put together a WMI solution but that's really a band-aid at best (IMHO) and E85 is KEY here, but it's not readily available, nor is it economical / fuel efficient. I love it when people only look at the price, and not what they're getting or why because the entry cost to this kit isn't going to be the only thing you'll need, and that makes it less transparent compared to the likes of Vortech, AVO, etc. I appreciate people like Mike and Robbie coming up with competent solutions but by the time you've added all that in cost wise, you'll still be over what a Vortech kit would cost, and still come in higher than a basic turbo kit with just as good if not better performance...

It's one thing to do a couple of WOT runs on the dyno with adequate time for cooling down, another to be stuck in traffic and with marginal fuel in the summer heat and trying to get on it, and with the AC on. Time will tell though, and I'm not knocking the OP, Mike's doing a great job with what he's got but there are considerations I'm thinking of when looking at the dyno chart he and Innovate has posted...

Just my 2 cents, again.


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

[swift996]

Originally Posted by Drift-Office

Disclaimer : Not here to flame, but just to post my thoughts.

For the record, I'm FOR this kit generally speaking. The problem is, some people are making this out to be the magical unicorn that it's not. It's a great product with lots of promise ~ ease of installation, delivery of power.

However, that comes at a cost of heat, in which is an issue for 91 Octane users and anyone planning to do more than a couple of pulls on the street. So what do people do? Put together a WMI solution but that's really a band-aid at best (IMHO) and E85 is KEY here, but it's not readily available, nor is it economical / fuel efficient. I love it when people only look at the price, and not what they're getting or why because the entry cost to this kit isn't going to be the only thing you'll need, and that makes it less transparent compared to the likes of Vortech, AVO, etc. I appreciate people like Mike and Robbie coming up with competent solutions but by the time you've added all that in cost wise, you'll still be over what a Vortech kit would cost, and still come in higher than a basic turbo kit with just as good if not better performance...

It's one thing to do a couple of WOT runs on the dyno with adequate time for cooling down, another to be stuck in traffic and with marginal fuel in the summer heat and trying to get on it, and with the AC on. Time will tell though, and I'm not knocking the OP, Mike's doing a great job with what he's got but there are considerations I'm thinking of when looking at the dyno chart he and Innovate has posted...

Just my 2 cents, again.


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

Twin screws tend to not create a lot of heat so I'm not sure why that's a huge concern for the average street driver. I agree with the total cost of ownership but I think that people like the entry-level base price on this. Just as with a turbo kit you can add on things for it to produce more power and add safety measures in. I think the bottom line is this is a new type of application for our platform that brings solid mid-range gains (the trouble spot stock) with a simplistic system. We have at least 5-6 legit turbo options now and 2 solid superchargers. I think it's a win for the community. It really comes down to use and I think most the people ordering these kits now, specifically want this kit. I'm sure there could be regrets over time.

[xxscaxx]

Originally Posted by Drift-Office

Disclaimer : Not here to flame, but just to post my thoughts.

For the record, I'm FOR this kit generally speaking. The problem is, some people are making this out to be the magical unicorn that it's not. It's a great product with lots of promise ~ ease of installation, delivery of power.

However, that comes at a cost of heat, in which is an issue for 91 Octane users and anyone planning to do more than a couple of pulls on the street. So what do people do? Put together a WMI solution but that's really a band-aid at best (IMHO) and E85 is KEY here, but it's not readily available, nor is it economical / fuel efficient. I love it when people only look at the price, and not what they're getting or why because the entry cost to this kit isn't going to be the only thing you'll need, and that makes it less transparent compared to the likes of Vortech, AVO, etc. I appreciate people like Mike and Robbie coming up with competent solutions but by the time you've added all that in cost wise, you'll still be over what a Vortech kit would cost, and still come in higher than a basic turbo kit with just as good if not better performance...

It's one thing to do a couple of WOT runs on the dyno with adequate time for cooling down, another to be stuck in traffic and with marginal fuel in the summer heat and trying to get on it, and with the AC on. Time will tell though, and I'm not knocking the OP, Mike's doing a great job with what he's got but there are considerations I'm thinking of when looking at the dyno chart he and Innovate has posted...

Just my 2 cents, again.


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

Thanks for the reply - I obviously am for this kit as well since I bought one, but your reply is something I do have in the back of my mind as well. I guess we will see what happens when myself along with others have some realtime everyday driving situations presented to us with this kit installed.

I chose this kit because of a price standpoint but it was not the main reason. I was very close on buying a ptuning turbo kit. This car is my daily driver and after owning a built STi that I literally touched every part on, I knew with this car I had to grow up a little and be a bit more subtle with mods as this is my only car for the moment haha.

I plan on running E85 since its readily available to me so I am lucky in a sense, but I can only run it when staying local as there aren't many stations in my area with it.

I wanted driveability & reliability, without my wallet exploding. Then again, I will be buying the intercooler kit when its available, probably upgrading the pulley, and who knows probably even upgrading the kit if they make a bigger blower. Which like you said, adds up fast, and more than a lot of other kits. This allows me to stay interested in the car and keep adding things as I go, and keep me excited about it all. At least thats what i'm trying to believe

A lot of my friends don't understand why i'd go with this thing seeing as it doesn't make a ton of power, and quite frankly isn't capable of making that much power. Its a compromise I made in order to have a bit more fun in the car yet not watch it be towed home because I blew it up (I hope at least). Maybe I will regret the purchase - but I think I made the right choice. If I wanted a 500whp brz i would have just gotten a turbo kit and boosted the balls off of it.

[Subzero]

Has anyone tried a litttle thicker engine oil to bring down oil temps? Just curious.

The first person to flame me over losing 1.48376458hp gets a swift kick in the nuts...

[Benn0r]

I bought the intercooled version of this kit in Australia and it is currently being installed, along with a full supersprint exhaust including headers.

When looking at forced induction options, i first looked at the objective of the car (apart from being a project). I chose supercharger, as it is going to be a daily driver and there are lots of hills roads really close to where i live. I think that both vortech\innovate systems are great, as are the turbo options out there (my brother has an avo brz).

As said above, i think another FI option is a win for this car and a win for the modding community. I also feel we dont know enough about the engine of this car, as its only been around for about a year now. We wont really know what its limitations are, nor what it is capable of without solid data that will take time (up to 5 years or so).

Hopefully in that time, we can create more constructive threads like this one (mostly) where we discuss them objectively and help contribute to each others purchasing decisions.

I look forward to sharing my cars results with all of you soon!

[Xero-Limit]

Be interested to see how this plays out with the IC and the dyno. Whether you cool it with an IC, h2o/meth, or e85 downstream matters little, except cost, reliability, and ease of install.

On the MX-5 I run an intercooled turbo, WMI, and E85. The intercooler is a given, the WMI helped run 14 psi on the street and 325 tq, the E85 allowed 380+tq with the WMI. Whether the WMI is even needed at this point is the question that was poised, and frankly with running this BRZ on e85 having no issues doing 250whp with no intercooler and no WMI I'm not so sure it even needs it. Perhaps just an oil cooler and/or bigger radiator should take care of the heat, with the e85 doing the antiknock.

If it is not available I'd almost rather use WMI than the liquid IC heat exchangers. The meth is fairly easy to put in and you can run cheap washer fluid. The liquid ICs are somewhat cumbersome and complicated in comparison. Reliability is about equal since both use electric pumps. With meth you can monitor though with the AEM failsafe.

Lots of choices...

Originally Posted by Benn0r

I bought the intercooled version of this kit in Australia and it is currently being installed, along with a full supersprint exhaust including headers.

...............

I look forward to sharing my cars results with all of you soon!

[AkaJabari]

Originally Posted by swift996

Twin screws tend to not create a lot of heat so I'm not sure why that's a huge concern for the average street driver.

Doesn't matter what sort of system you're using to cram more air into the engine. They're all going to generate heat at the same rate. Gay-Lussac's Law, part of the combined gas law. It's like physics and shyt.

With this engine being so sensitive to temperature, any form of forced induction should be coupled with a way to reduce intake temperatures or risk premature engine failure (DI seals being the weak link and prolly the first things to go). ie running w/m, E85, intercooling. Prefferably some combination of the three.

After I re-read that last paragraph, I realized that it didnt make much sense. Basically we need to figure out what temp this engine can reliably operate at and then try not go above that. Reducing intake temps allows you to cram more o2 at a given temperature than you would otherwise be able to. Adding power in the form of volume over pressure. Does that make sense? It did in my head

[Drift-Office]

Originally Posted by xxscaxx

I plan on running E85 since its readily available to me so I am lucky in a sense, but I can only run it when staying local as there aren't many stations in my area with it.

I wanted driveability & reliability, without my wallet exploding. Then again, I will be buying the intercooler kit when its available, probably upgrading the pulley, and who knows probably even upgrading the kit if they make a bigger blower. Which like you said, adds up fast, and more than a lot of other kits. This allows me to stay interested in the car and keep adding things as I go, and keep me excited about it all. At least thats what i'm trying to believe

Maybe I will regret the purchase - but I think I made the right choice.

Indeed, you're one of the "lucky" ones to be able to have an E85 station service your locale - so that part of the equation makes sense. Mine is about 22 miles away, so it doesn't make sense for me to keep a 2 gallon reserve and 8 gallons of operational service with an already reduced fuel economy backed by even more consumption in a FI environment...

And there is no 'wrong' choice - there's only choice. Everyone's motivation to purchase (or not) is backed by what they want to and don't want to see. As a calibrator & shop though, my objectivity is different in that I have to see this from all points of the compass so that when my clients consult me for an opinion, I get them an educated one that makes sense to them and thus be able to manage their expectations. I think that's the reason why many people who came into my shop wanting to purchase a Vortech ended up buying an AVO setup instead. The last thing I want to be accused of is to sell them something off the shelf just to make a margin, which I clearly see some of the other vendors doing, just because.

Again, whenever air is being compressed, heat will be generated. Heat is heat - "less heat" doesn't negate the fact that it's still heat and that is still my biggest contention of this kit, just saying. For those without E85, the reliability mod list is going to add quite a bit to it. My other question is that while this kit has been in dev for a year and rolled out in the rest of the world for months now, how is it that an IC kit hasn't been forthcoming as of yet?

Anyways, enjoy your purchase - we look forward to seeing long term info on this!

Cheers!


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

[xxscaxx]

Originally Posted by Drift-Office

Indeed, you're one of the "lucky" ones to be able to have an E85 station service your locale - so that part of the equation makes sense. Mine is about 22 miles away, so it doesn't make sense for me to keep a 2 gallon reserve and 8 gallons of operational service with an already reduced fuel economy backed by even more consumption in a FI environment...

And there is no 'wrong' choice - there's only choice. Everyone's motivation to purchase (or not) is backed by what they want to and don't want to see. As a calibrator & shop though, my objectivity is different in that I have to see this from all points of the compass so that when my clients consult me for an opinion, I get them an educated one that makes sense to them and thus be able to manage their expectations. I think that's the reason why many people who came into my shop wanting to purchase a Vortech ended up buying an AVO setup instead. The last thing I want to be accused of is to sell them something off the shelf just to make a margin, which I clearly see some of the other vendors doing, just because.

Again, whenever air is being compressed, heat will be generated. Heat is heat - "less heat" doesn't negate the fact that it's still heat and that is still my biggest contention of this kit, just saying. For those without E85, the reliability mod list is going to add quite a bit to it. My other question is that while this kit has been in dev for a year and rolled out in the rest of the world for months now, how is it that an IC kit hasn't been forthcoming as of yet?

Anyways, enjoy your purchase - we look forward to seeing long term info on this!

Cheers!


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

Right on - my E85 station is on my way home for work so its perfect for me. BUT, if I have to go somewhere far, I need the ability to switch to a 93 map, only because I am not going to chance running out of E85 and being stuck somewhere lol. Luckily I don't venture very far from home most of the time, so this works out. This is also why I will end up with some other form of cooling solution as I won't be on E85 100% of the time.

Your transparency is appreciated. If you were closer I'd definitely consider your services.

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by Drift-Office

Again, whenever air is being compressed, heat will be generated. Heat is heat - "less heat" doesn't negate the fact that it's still heat and that is still my biggest contention of this kit, just saying. For those without E85, the reliability mod list is going to add quite a bit to it. My other question is that while this kit has been in dev for a year and rolled out in the rest of the world for months now, how is it that an IC kit hasn't been forthcoming as of yet?

Anyways, enjoy your purchase - we look forward to seeing long term info on this!

Cheers!


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

I really hate to be an ass, but seriously where are the data logs?
How many people and times do we have to ask for it?

Yeah its great, dynos look good, its fast easy to install.

marketing marketing...

We have seen all this before, and a million dyno sheets.

Post the real world data, enough with the marketing.
IAT post, oil temps, knock, timing, coolant etc. Just post up the data on the back to back.

After this long its clear you guys are either afraid to do so or tip toeing around the manufacturer I don't know but it's getting old.

[Drift-Office]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

I really hate to be an ass, but seriously where are the data logs? How many people and times do we have to ask for it?

Post the real world data, enough with the marketing.
IAT post, oil temps, knock, timing, coolant etc. Just post up the data on the back to back.

Surely you're not referring to me yeah? You're just projecting what I'm saying between the lines?

@swift996 : Nice ninja edit!


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC