follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Xero Limit
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Scion FR-S Forum | Subaru BRZ Forum | Toyota 86 GT 86 Forum | AS1 Forum - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing

Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing Relating to suspension, chassis, and brakes. Sponsored by 949 Racing.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-13-2019, 11:36 AM   #57
Gt86Force
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Drives: GT86 Supercharged
Location: Europe
Posts: 19
Thanks: 1
Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristor View Post
I started with Ferodo DS2500, and they are just not suitable for any serious track use. They are fine for a beginner who is doing occasional track days and primarily daily driving, they are not suitable for serious track use at all.

I don't want to be that guy, but based on some of the advice in this thread, it's really important to note that for critical safety systems you should be careful about making recommendations. Just because something worked for you does not mean it will work well for everyone, and most importantly, faster drivers are harder on critical subsystems. If you are finding the DS2500 (and RBF600 for that matter) sufficient on track, no offense but you're a slow driver. Neither of these are suitable for hard use.

I think it was Terry Fair that made the point that you should compare your laptimes on your preferred local track to what Spec Miata folks are doing on average. If you aren't beating the Spec Miata average lap time, you're slow and your experiences may not be suitable to extrapolate to someone else who is using their car harder than you are.
I agree, but I think also the OP is a starter (not recognizing brake fade is a beggineer mistake). BTW is not criticising, we all have been/are there! You need seat time and mistakes to learn!

The great thing with this platform is that you can start to approach the track with the car almost stock. Pads, oil, brake lines and tires and you are good to go IMHO.
If you can pace yourself, this car gives you the opportunity to learn a lot because is simple and really communicative. If you start with slicks, bbk, more power ecc. ecc. ignoring the fact that it may be dangerous, a lot of the root causes of your mistakes are not clear. (wrong braking technique for example).

I've started with that config, and upgraded when it stopped being enough. Now i'm running 265,ap racing (made by a company named essex, btw if you don't know them check out their website!! great products), more power, cooling ecc. ecc. It is a journey as it should be for every car you track independently of your experience.

And yes I'm slow driver, no offense! taken
I still pay for my track days, cars, mods, tires and gas. When you are fast usually you are getting payed.
Gt86Force is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Gt86Force For This Useful Post:
biggie (08-13-2019), Tristor (08-13-2019)
Old 09-13-2019, 05:49 AM   #58
biggie
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Drives: gt86
Location: Romania
Posts: 45
Thanks: 43
Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Short review of the new setup (Stoptech slotted rotors, Carbotech XP10 pads - front only - Stoptech brake lines all around and same Castrol SRF).

During the pad's bed-in period the squealing was unbearable. This process took quite a long time, up to 600 miles of mixed driving (20% city, the rest up in the mountains).
Now, after more than 1k miles it seems to be a bit less noisy and I hope that's the case because they are bedded in properly and not because the outside temps have dropped in the last 2 weeks.
Up the mountains they behave great, lot's more feedback, no issues whatsoever.

On the track however there's an obvious tendency on straight hard braking for the back to slide around quite a lot. This was not the case before and my guess is because of the different pads in the back (yellowstuff). Also, the difference in feedback is not obvious on hard braking (and this is the case on most corners). Maybe there should not be any difference or I'm still to new in this and unable to see it, or maybe I did not pushed them hard enough for the difference to became obvious. Lap times are on par with those from my last trackday so I'm a bit disappointed. Ar least I'm more confident in my brakes.

I'll keep the pads for now, but I think I'll try something different next time (mostly because of the noise). Next on my list were Club Racer and DTC-60, does anyone know how these compare (noise wise) with XP10?

P.S. worth mentioning is that this time I did some cooling laps every 5 minutes or so
biggie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2019, 07:09 AM   #59
new2subaru
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Drives: 15 FR-S
Location: Ontario
Posts: 2,040
Thanks: 3,829
Thanked 1,765 Times in 1,052 Posts
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggie View Post
Short review of the new setup (Stoptech slotted rotors, Carbotech XP10 pads - front only - Stoptech brake lines all around and same Castrol SRF).

During the pad's bed-in period the squealing was unbearable. This process took quite a long time, up to 600 miles of mixed driving (20% city, the rest up in the mountains).
Now, after more than 1k miles it seems to be a bit less noisy and I hope that's the case because they are bedded in properly and not because the outside temps have dropped in the last 2 weeks.
Up the mountains they behave great, lot's more feedback, no issues whatsoever.

On the track however there's an obvious tendency on straight hard braking for the back to slide around quite a lot. This was not the case before and my guess is because of the different pads in the back (yellowstuff). Also, the difference in feedback is not obvious on hard braking (and this is the case on most corners). Maybe there should not be any difference or I'm still to new in this and unable to see it, or maybe I did not pushed them hard enough for the difference to became obvious. Lap times are on par with those from my last trackday so I'm a bit disappointed. Ar least I'm more confident in my brakes.

I'll keep the pads for now, but I think I'll try something different next time (mostly because of the noise). Next on my list were Club Racer and DTC-60, does anyone know how these compare (noise wise) with XP10?

P.S. worth mentioning is that this time I did some cooling laps every 5 minutes or so
It doesn’t sound like you’re bedding the pads properly prior to using them. Driving 600 miles has nothing to do with it.

Look up bedding track brake pads.
new2subaru is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to new2subaru For This Useful Post:
churchx (09-13-2019), CounterSpace Garage (09-13-2019), Pat (09-13-2019), Tristor (09-13-2019), wparsons (09-13-2019)
Old 09-13-2019, 07:50 AM   #60
churchx
Senior Member
 
churchx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Drives: 2014 orange GT86
Location: Latvia, Riga
Posts: 3,524
Thanks: 488
Thanked 1,627 Times in 1,120 Posts
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
+1. Track pads have high working temps. Normal daily driving rarely heat them up to those. If anything, one of main reasons for many track pads to squeal is for daily driving light braking pattern to wear down bedded layer from rotors in few days, thus asking for rebedding from time to time if one chooses using track pads all the time.
churchx is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to churchx For This Useful Post:
NoHaveMSG (09-13-2019), wparsons (09-13-2019)
Old 09-13-2019, 12:28 PM   #61
norcalpb
Senior Member
 
norcalpb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Drives: '13 DGM BRZ Limted
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 1,327
Thanks: 324
Thanked 342 Times in 253 Posts
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Normal street pads you would drive a ton of miles and they naturally bed themselves.

Track pads you need to be quite the lunatic but it only takes 10 min.

Accelerate to 60mph in 2nd gear. Slam on the brakes with 70% force until you slow down to 10mph. Do this 5 times in a row. Yes you will look like a crazy person so do this somewhere private. DO NOT come to a full stop as this may damage your rotors. Make a U turn on the road you were on and do the same thing but at 100% braking force (do not engage ABS as this’ll fuck it up too). Once you’ve done your 5 100% braking force 60-10mph brake runs drive around for 20 min (no full stops) to let the brakes properly cool.

I say 5 times as a general guideline as this depends entirely on your brake compound and tires. 200tw tires get the brakes to proper temp quickly when braking hard, but it may take more than 5 brake runs with a true track pad.

I like to do it until I can smell the brakes. Sometimes you can see sparks shoot out which is normal.
norcalpb is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to norcalpb For This Useful Post:
Tristor (09-13-2019)
Old 09-13-2019, 12:40 PM   #62
churchx
Senior Member
 
churchx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Drives: 2014 orange GT86
Location: Latvia, Riga
Posts: 3,524
Thanks: 488
Thanked 1,627 Times in 1,120 Posts
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
And now some eye candy instead of text
churchx is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to churchx For This Useful Post:
new2subaru (09-13-2019), norcalpb (09-13-2019), Tristor (09-13-2019), wparsons (09-13-2019)
Old 09-13-2019, 01:01 PM   #63
norcalpb
Senior Member
 
norcalpb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Drives: '13 DGM BRZ Limted
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 1,327
Thanks: 324
Thanked 342 Times in 253 Posts
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I find it hilarious that race tracks say absolutely no bedding on track. So where do they expect you to do it without the risk of getting pulled over??
norcalpb is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to norcalpb For This Useful Post:
Tcoat (09-13-2019)
Old 09-13-2019, 01:10 PM   #64
NoHaveMSG
Senior Member
 
NoHaveMSG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: 13' BRZ
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,619
Thanks: 1,269
Thanked 1,297 Times in 735 Posts
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by norcalpb View Post
I find it hilarious that race tracks say absolutely no bedding on track. So where do they expect you to do it without the risk of getting pulled over??
I have some pretty good roads out here for it. Of course we are not nearly as populated.
NoHaveMSG is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to NoHaveMSG For This Useful Post:
Leonardo (09-13-2019)
Old 09-13-2019, 01:15 PM   #65
churchx
Senior Member
 
churchx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Drives: 2014 orange GT86
Location: Latvia, Riga
Posts: 3,524
Thanks: 488
Thanked 1,627 Times in 1,120 Posts
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
BTW, regarding brake bedding topic - why not keep pressing accelerator simultaneously while braking? In most cars brake torque is way more then engine torque, and it will still slow down, also engine torque = less chance to lock up brakes, shouldn't it ease putting same amount of heat vs just braking in fewer iterations of slowdowns and from lesser top speeds? Or how about floored accel pedal at low gear to maximize torque, and mid-brake just about for constant speed .. shouldn't it also continuously just build up more and more heat in single cycle? Anybody know of possible illeffects of using engine torque during bedding, why such way is not mentioned in most bedding instructions?
churchx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2019, 01:39 PM   #66
wparsons
Senior Member
 
wparsons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: 2013 Asphalt FR-S Manual
Location: Whitby, ON, Canada
Posts: 6,597
Thanks: 7,479
Thanked 3,252 Times in 2,081 Posts
Mentioned: 98 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by norcalpb View Post
I find it hilarious that race tracks say absolutely no bedding on track.

Unpredictable braking down to slow speeds will cause a crash in a HUGE hurry on a track.



Quote:
Originally Posted by norcalpb View Post
So where do they expect you to do it without the risk of getting pulled over??

In the paddock, or on a brake dyno (you can buy pre-bedded rotors/pads from race shops).
__________________
Light travels faster than sound, so people may appear to be bright until you hear them speak...
flickr
wparsons is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to wparsons For This Useful Post:
strat61caster (09-13-2019)
Old 09-13-2019, 01:41 PM   #67
strat61caster
Thread Killer
 
strat61caster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Drives: '13 FRS
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 9,098
Thanks: 12,445
Thanked 8,230 Times in 4,301 Posts
Mentioned: 77 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
no need to overstress the drivetrain since brake pads for racecars go on racecars that may have powertrains that aren't super durable

Also many modern ECU's cut power when brake and gas are applied simultaneously due to the Prius accidents like 15 years ago, it wouldn't be possible on a lot cars.

Also @biggie get XP10's for the rear as well, it will totally fix the instability, and agreed that you didn't properly bed them in until you started doing laps. Yes they don't feel radically different but you should be able to use them harder and longer than what you had before.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guff View Post
ineedyourdiddly
strat61caster is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to strat61caster For This Useful Post:
DarkSunrise (09-13-2019)
Old 09-13-2019, 01:56 PM   #68
NoHaveMSG
Senior Member
 
NoHaveMSG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: 13' BRZ
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,619
Thanks: 1,269
Thanked 1,297 Times in 735 Posts
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by churchx View Post
BTW, regarding brake bedding topic - why not keep pressing accelerator simultaneously while braking? In most cars brake torque is way more then engine torque, and it will still slow down, also engine torque = less chance to lock up brakes, shouldn't it ease putting same amount of heat vs just braking in fewer iterations of slowdowns and from lesser top speeds? Or how about floored accel pedal at low gear to maximize torque, and mid-brake just about for constant speed .. shouldn't it also continuously just build up more and more heat in single cycle? Anybody know of possible illeffects of using engine torque during bedding, why such way is not mentioned in most bedding instructions?
All bedding instructions I have read say not to do that. No reason is given though.
NoHaveMSG is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to NoHaveMSG For This Useful Post:
wparsons (09-13-2019)
Old 09-13-2019, 03:29 PM   #69
RFB
Senior Member
 
RFB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Drives: FRS
Location: Canada
Posts: 884
Thanks: 138
Thanked 399 Times in 274 Posts
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG View Post
All bedding instructions I have read say not to do that. No reason is given though.
Korporate Kash k-ching probably, doing it their way probably wears out the pads faster breaking them in their way. More money for Kommie Korporate swine.
RFB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2019, 03:36 PM   #70
NoHaveMSG
Senior Member
 
NoHaveMSG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: 13' BRZ
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,619
Thanks: 1,269
Thanked 1,297 Times in 735 Posts
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFB View Post
Korporate Kash k-ching probably, doing it their way probably wears out the pads faster breaking them in their way. More money for Kommie Korporate swine.
That makes no sense but okay.

If I had to guess, dragging the brakes may create too much heat in the rotors to develop a transfer layer, but I dunno
NoHaveMSG is online now   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WTB: Race Brake Pads Kordless Want-To-Buy Requests 0 02-20-2018 06:03 PM
FS: Hawk track brake pads, DTC-30 front/HP+ rear, 90% life left, best track day combo tampaSi Brakes, Suspension, Chassis 4 05-27-2017 02:31 PM
race/track car fastfrs Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing 24 01-14-2013 09:26 AM
No Race Track Seats in Race Car Drivers Every Day Cars..!! JohnnyNight Cosmetic Modification (Interior/Exterior/Lighting) 24 10-16-2012 04:42 PM
Toyota 86 race track? sneaky AUSTRALIA 6 06-14-2012 10:56 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.