FA20T swap from the new subaru forester direct bolt in?

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by AVOturboworld

Putting the turbo long block into the car only really accomplishes *1* thing - lower compression pistons. For the 5k you would spend on the long block to do so, you could easily purchase aftermarket forged pistons to accomplish the same thing.

Turbo kits, unless CARB approved, are completely illegal in the state of California (Unless the car is built before 1975).

Engine swaps have been the go-to option for that reason with Subaru's for years in this state, as long as the engine is the same year or newer.

The Vortech Supercharger kit is SUPPOSEDLY being CARB approved, but who knows if it will be or not...

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

Turbo kits, unless CARB approved, are completely illegal in the state of California (Unless the car is built before 1975).

Engine swaps have been the go-to option for that reason with Subaru's for years in this state, as long as the engine is the same year or newer.

The Vortech Supercharger kit is SUPPOSEDLY being CARB approved, but who knows if it will be or not...

Vortech and Innovate both are seeking CARB approval.

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

Vortech and Innovate both are seeking CARB approval.

Thats good to hear, I love the Innovate kit.

[regal]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

Thats good to hear, I love the Innovate kit.

on pump gas or e85 ?

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by regal

on pump gas or e85 ?

I'm not running the kit. I just love it in general, LOL! It looks like it belongs on the car due to the fantastic design.

[andrew20195]

Originally Posted by wparsons

I don't know about anyone else, but until pure DI systems find a proven way to prevent valve fouling, I'll stick with a mix of port and direct injection.

I agree with this. Removing the intake manifold to walnut blast the valves is a pain in the ass.
@regal, it's a little early to assume that the DIT engine will be problem free when driven hard. The Forester is the only USDM vehicle that has the engine, and it's only a few months old.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by regal

Yea I bought into the proven D4-S, multi-port +DI track record, but the torque dip is frustrating and the dang tip-in knock I'm not so sure its worth it.

You're kidding right? You do know that both of those have exactly zero to do with the D4-S technology, right?

The torque dip is because of the header design and the stock tune, and the tip-in knock is the stock tune.

Change your header and flash a new tune and both issues are 100% gone, without touching the D4-S hardware.

[AVOturboworld]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

Turbo kits, unless CARB approved, are completely illegal in the state of California (Unless the car is built before 1975).

Engine swaps have been the go-to option for that reason with Subaru's for years in this state, as long as the engine is the same year or newer.

I'm not sure I see how this is going to work. Honestly.

I can understand swapping an entire turbo motor/wiring harness into, say, an Impreza 2.5i from an Impreza WRX. Or a Forester XT into a Forester 2.5i. Pretty much the same engine bay, same basic layout. Retain the stock cats and tune, and it's good to go.

But there is no fr-s/brz turbo model equivalent.

[arghx7]

Two main comments:

1) swapping in this motor makes no financial sense
2) despite that, the FA20T is much, much better designed for a turbo than the engine in the BRZ

Originally Posted by industrial

Low revving, low displacement motors with tiny turbos. It's very efficient and great for emissions. Not what I want in a sports car at all. God why?

People complain about transient response and low end torque. Then you make them an engine with transient response and low end torque and they complain it doesn't rev high enough or feel "turbo" enough.

Have you ever designed a direct injection turbo engine before? Do you have any idea how difficult it is to size the turbo? It's waaayyyyyy harder than picking something for a custom project or a kit sold in small volumes. I have seen guys who size turbos for a living get it wayyy wrong, surging at low speed and choking at high speed. That kind of mistake can cost a supplier huge contracts when they fail to meet targets. Have some appreciation for what's involved in making that kind of "truck" torque curve. Coincidentally, the new M5 and S8 have a similar curve, although high output spec DI engines do rev a bit higher. Also, BMW and Audi have 2 liter turbo gas engines in their sporty cars.

Originally Posted by Turdinator

I wasn't disputing that the FA20DIT has different heads. I was questioning your proof of those heads being superior or even that our heads are junk...

On a related note, are there upgraded direct injectors available for the subaru system? Or would you be stuck with the power that the stock injectores maxed out at?

The D-4S heads are designed for flow. The FA20T, like basically every other 2 liter turbo DI engine in production, are designed for knock resistance and combustion efficiency. They use high tumble ports matched to appropriate piston bowls. That's why they can make so much torque at low speed--low speed torque is difficult because that is a highly prone knock area.

Originally Posted by wparsons

You're kidding right? You do know that both of those have exactly zero to do with the D4-S technology, right?

The torque dip is because of the header design and the stock tune, and the tip-in knock is the stock tune.

Change your header and flash a new tune and both issues are 100% gone, without touching the D4-S hardware.

As I've pointed in previous threads, basically every n/a DI engine has a "torque dip" somewhere, including the GM 3.6 in the Camaro, the Lexus D-4S V6 and V8 engines, and the Infiniti DI V8 engine. It's the nature of scavenging, cam phasing, manifold design, etc. Yeah with the right hardware you can work towards flattening it out, but you're giving up something no matter what choice you make.

Originally Posted by regal

It is different fuel injection, no port Fuel injectors, no D4-S. This engine is the reason Subaru agreed to build the twins, they wanted DIT bad and Toyota gave them the tools to develop it. It is a very good engine, what should be in our twins.

You don't know who worked on what. Toyota has no turbo direct injection engines in production right now, although I'm sure they'll have one by 2017 model year. They've been working with Yamaha on D-4S for a long time. It's highly likely that they don't really know what they're doing, at least no more than anybody else. I can tell you that Subaru is a small company with a small staff. For 20 years they really only had two engine families.

Most likely Subaru hired a consulting company, most likely AVL in Austria, to do a significant amount of the work.

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by AVOturboworld

I'm not sure I see how this is going to work. Honestly.

I can understand swapping an entire turbo motor/wiring harness into, say, an Impreza 2.5i from an Impreza WRX. Or a Forester XT into a Forester 2.5i. Pretty much the same engine bay, same basic layout. Retain the stock cats and tune, and it's good to go.

But there is no fr-s/brz turbo model equivalent.

It might not work. Only way I see it working is if you use the case from the na fa20 with the rest of the dit engine so the bellhousing/starter will bolt to the trans, if that's even possible.

Honestly, this is a more realistic option say 5 or 10 years from now.

[industrial]

Originally Posted by arghx7

People complain about transient response and low end torque. Then you make them an engine with transient response and low end torque and they complain it doesn't rev high enough or feel "turbo" enough.

Have you ever designed a direct injection turbo engine before? Do you have any idea how difficult it is to size the turbo? It's waaayyyyyy harder than picking something for a custom project or a kit sold in small volumes. I have seen guys who size turbos for a living get it wayyy wrong, surging at low speed and choking at high speed. That kind of mistake can cost a supplier huge contracts when they fail to meet targets. Have some appreciation for what's involved in making that kind of "truck" torque curve. Coincidentally, the new M5 and S8 have a similar curve, although high output spec DI engines do rev a bit higher. Also, BMW and Audi have 2 liter turbo gas engines in their sporty cars.

The FA20DIT is a great engine for a family car (Legacy) or truck (Forester). Am I disrespecting the notion of putting this type of engine into a sports car? Yup. That's all. I do believe when/if the wrx/sti are released in the near future with their version of this motor it will address the issues I have with it's unsporty nature. There is more to a fun motor than pushing your butt into the seat. I'm not dissing all turbo motors. There are lots of great examples of awesome gas turbo motors for sports cars... ej2xx, 4g83, sr20, etc. I'm not sure I'm sold on stand alone DI for turbo cars yet with all the issues people have run into on the VAG/BMW side of things.

[arghx7]

Those kind of motors are in sports cars already though. z4 and M5 for example.

[regal]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

It might not work. Only way I see it working is if you use the case from the na fa20 with the rest of the dit engine so the bellhousing/starter will bolt to the trans, if that's even possible.

Honestly, this is a more realistic option say 5 or 10 years from now.

In '94 dropping an SR20DET into a 240sx made no financial sense and was a pipe dream, wasn't too long after and we were buying front clips by the cargo load from Japan.

Who knows what the next few years will bring. The more the FA20T is produced and used worldwide, the more expensive its going to be to dedicate a line for assembling the lesser FA20. Economy of scale and in my opinion a version of the FA20T may be a wash in expense for Subaru to sell in the BRZ over the FA20.

I am glad Arg posted here and I'm not the only one who believes the FA20T is a superior engine for turbo charging.

In the short term (within a year) I could possibly see JY hunts for a build like this:

FA20T pistons, heads, complete DI, turbo, along with an aftermarket manifold/charge pipe, keeping the FA20T block, rods, crank.

Lots of possibilities.

[AVOturboworld]

Originally Posted by regal

In '94 dropping an SR20DET into a 240sx made no financial sense and was a pipe dream, wasn't too long after and we were buying front clips by the cargo load from Japan.

Who knows what the next few years will bring. The more the FA20T is produced and used worldwide, the more expensive its going to be to dedicate a line for assembling the lesser FA20. Economy of scale and in my opinion a version of the FA20T may be a wash in expense for Subaru to sell in the BRZ over the FA20.

The majority of Subaru's sales are of n/a vehicles - as sexy as the turbo models sound, they are not the volume sellers. There is many more Legacy, Outback, and Impreza 2.5i's on the market than there are XT/WRX versions.