The Goal vs Porche 718 S turbo Boxer

[r_rated]

Originally Posted by Gforce

For a daily driver it is. Well, anytime for a road car. It was unnecessary to make these cars so loud. Makes them sound cheap compared to let us say the 911.

Just spent all day in a friend's caymam as a passenger and have had loaners. They are REALLY loud inside. Not cheap but very racey and mechanical sounding. Any 2 door Pcar is. My 911 has sound pumped into the cabin via a sound tube. This is mechanical and the actual sound the car makes unlike that crap my BMW does with playing exhaust sounds through the speakers - that is emulated and artificial. I used to think my 911 exhaust droned.... it doesn't - a factory cayman has much drone. This is all fantastic noise when you are driving for fun but for commuting its not. Also the reason for a quiet car for a daily. BRZ does the gambit better with that regards.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by r_rated

I never compare the two but thanks... the panoz has racecar based suspension. The BRZ has streetcar suspension. A 90's racecare is still more capable on a track than a new streetcar.... The panoz is also lighter than a BRZ But last point... my car won't see track time. Occasionally mountains but mostly A to A which is why was in the market.

The comparison in this thread is to a Porsche and my point remains consistent in that Porsche engineers and produces a car that is track ready out of the box. Subaru/Toyota make one of the best street cars for having fun but at that price point may not be such a great value if tracking is your intention.

You said that panoz has a racecar based suspension. Do you know what is the ordinary life of these suspensions? Approx. 1/3rd the life of a streetcar suspension. Do you think that Porsche has a similar suspension on its street cars? They don't have it, because the owners will complain. As much as a BRZ is track ready, the same holds for Porsche. If you want a REAL race car, then yes Porsche has a few capable cars like the 911 GT3 CUP. But apart from such models, both Porsche and Subaru sells mainly street cars that can also be tracked. Both companies have a race history and they've transferred a lot of the know-how to their street cars. Not all of it, because it is not possible (like the racecar suspension). So, there isn't any issue to track a BRZ and there aren't any reliability issues if this is your point. I can understand that you might want to drive a 300+ hp car, but even in this case you can have the alternative of a WRX STI car.

[r_rated]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

You said that panoz has a racecar based suspension. Do you know what is the ordinary life of these suspensions? Approx. 1/3rd the life of a streetcar suspension. Do you think that Porsche has a similar suspension on its street cars? They don't have it, because the owners will complain. As much as a BRZ is track ready, the same holds for Porsche. If you want a REAL race car, then yes Porsche has a few capable cars like the 911 GT3 CUP. But apart from such models, both Porsche and Subaru sells mainly street cars that can also be tracked. Both companies have a race history and they've transferred a lot of the know-how to their street cars. Not all of it, because it is not possible (like the racecar suspension). So, there isn't any issue to track a BRZ and there aren't any reliability issues if this is your point. I can understand that you might want to drive a 300+ hp car, but even in this case you can have the alternative of a WRX STI car.

What are you talking about? Of course racecar suspension requires more maintenance. Who disputed that?

Here is the difference between Porsche an subaru. Porsche starts with a single purpose and that's a driver focused sports car with cost being second. Subaru starts with cheap people haulers and all arounders then makes a couple models more sporty. The suspension on a 911 is very complex - far more than any subaru and the 718/cayman which is the point of this thread. Porsche does this to neuter the handling a lttle on the cayman and not have performance overlap to the 911. Cayman with 911 suspension would be epic... luckily you can finally get a 911 engine if paying over MSRP for a GT4 is your thing sadly...

The fact remains that BRZ is very fun for street but not a track in factory form.

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by Gforce

For a daily driver it is. Well, anytime for a road car. It was unnecessary to make these cars so loud. Makes them sound cheap compared to let us say the 911.

Well compared to a 911 they are much cheaper. If your DD must be quieter then maybe the 86 isn't the best choice. A 911 isn't the best DD choice either. I've owned several and would never think of having one for a DD.

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by TommyW

Well compared to a 911 they are much cheaper. If your DD must be quieter then maybe the 86 isn't the best choice. A 911 isn't the best DD choice either. I've owned several and would never think of having one for a DD.

We are agreed then.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by r_rated

What are you talking about? Of course racecar suspension requires more maintenance. Who disputed that?

Here is the difference between Porsche an subaru. Porsche starts with a single purpose and that's a driver focused sports car with cost being second. Subaru starts with cheap people haulers and all arounders then makes a couple models more sporty. The suspension on a 911 is very complex - far more than any subaru and the 718/cayman which is the point of this thread. Porsche does this to neuter the handling a lttle on the cayman and not have performance overlap to the 911. Cayman with 911 suspension would be epic... luckily you can finally get a 911 engine if paying over MSRP for a GT4 is your thing sadly...

Subaru's suspension is dated back from the rallying days. A very complex suspension is not always better, especially if you want to repair it between the rally stages. Many other components are also simple and easy accesible for easy maintenance and repair. I was reading some days ago of how you could change the throttle body on a Cayman and it was a nightmare comparing to our cars. Same if you wanted to change the final drive ratio. Very few companies have the know-how of Subaru.

Originally Posted by r_rated

The fact remains that BRZ is very fun for street but not a track in factory form.

This is your own perception. Many owners buy the 86/BRZ for sparse track usage. They are very happy with the results and without issues. Things usually go wrong if you don't maintain the car correctly or if you are doing wrong modifications.

[Gforce]

You can have fun on a track with any car. One track session I was at saw the instructors all try to set fastest time in the fwd Chevy Impala rental one of them arrived in. Don't say they weren't all having fun.

The BRZ is more fun on track than that, according to all reports.

No road car can be as much fun on a track as a race car. But fun is still fun.

The Porsche sportscar line up is as close to a race car as you can get without actually building a race car. A BRZ is not. But, and this is an important but, for a lot less money than Porsche spends to make the Cayman better than the BRZ you can make a very, very quick BRZ.

If you carefully compare the suspension under the BRZ to that under a Cayman and you know what you are looking at they are the same (technically, the Porsche is slightly inferior because it still depends on the strut for hub location which the BRZ does not). Porsche has no special suspension knowledge that Subaru doesn't know about. The differences are in the details, not in the basic layout.

[nikitopo]

Two years ago, Subaru used a street based STI to run on a British WRC race as a tribute to Colin McRae. The changes on the car were very basic (ECU changes, suspension, brakes and a roll cage for safety) and it didn't have much relationship with the actual WRC cars. The race was successful and they even managed to finish in the top 20 list ahead of other 13 cars. It was a great achievement for a street based car. They even used a BRZ for the trainings, because the STI wasn't ready. So, I cannot accept that Subaru builds just "sporty" cheap cars. Details in the following video:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mejMde6z1Nw"]Launch Control: Chasing the Legacy of Colin McRae – Episode 3.14 - YouTube[/ame]

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Gforce

Porsche has no special suspension knowledge that Subaru doesn't know about. The differences are in the details, not in the basic layout.

This. In fact, Porsche's suspension setups are historically very basic. The current generation uses double A arms while their competitors use a more complicated 5 link setup in the rear. Up until the mid 90s they used torsion bars on the 911. after that and including the 997/987, they used a McPherson setup in the front AND REAR. This is the cheapest suspension setup possible aside from the antiquated torsion bar. They make up for this by limiting the suspension travel (thus limiting the camber change) and lots of fine tuning. The BRZ uses the same McPherson setup up front and a sort of hybrid 4-link/ double a arm setup in the rear. It's slightly similar to BMWs E46 rear end, but it's a pretty unique setup.

Point is that Porsche has no secret suspension technology. They're just very good at selling cars for 30% more than they cost. Their profit per car is about 10 times the industry average and 6 times that of the next highest. I love Porsches but they are absolutely overpriced because they can be. That said my dream car is still a 911.


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[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Two years ago, Subaru used a street based STI to run on a British WRC race as a tribute to Colin McRae. The changes on the car were very basic (ECU changes, suspension, brakes and a roll cage for safety) and it didn't have much relationship with the actual WRC cars. The race was successful and they even managed to finish in the top 20 list ahead of other 13 cars. It was a great achievement for a street based car. They even used a BRZ for the trainings, because the STI wasn't ready. So, I cannot accept that Subaru builds just "sporty" cheap cars. Details in the following video:

Yes, people like to forget that Subaru has plenty of racing pedigree and know how. Just because the BRZ is 'cheap' and not designed to chase absolute limits doesn't mean it's mechanically inferior.


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[Scrappydoo]

Originally Posted by r_rated

Just spent all day in a friend's caymam as a passenger and have had loaners. They are REALLY loud inside. Not cheap but very racey and mechanical sounding. Any 2 door Pcar is. My 911 has sound pumped into the cabin via a sound tube. This is mechanical and the actual sound the car makes unlike that crap my BMW does with playing exhaust sounds through the speakers - that is emulated and artificial. I used to think my 911 exhaust droned.... it doesn't - a factory cayman has much drone. This is all fantastic noise when you are driving for fun but for commuting its not. Also the reason for a quiet car for a daily. BRZ does the gambit better with that regards.

I'd love to spend a day in a friend's caymam. Was that loaners or moaners? Lovers?

Big fingers, small keyboard or literacy issues?

[r_rated]

Originally Posted by Scrappydoo

I'd love to spend a day in a friend's caymam. Was that loaners or moaners? Lovers?

Big fingers, small keyboard or literacy issues?

You're so smart to catch my typo.

I bet my English is better than your Russian, German, French or Portuguese.

[WolfpackS2k]

LOL at "a Cayman's engine is too loud"

The F*ck?!?

Perhaps it's all perspective, but my Cayman S is the quietest car I've ever owned. If you asked me for the ONE thing I'd want to change on it, above all else, it would be to give it a louder, more emotional exhaust system. Loud my ass...

It's not remotely loud inside for a stock vehicle with the engine mounted directly behind your head.

[r_rated]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

LOL at "a Cayman's engine is too loud"

The F*ck?!?

Perhaps it's all perspective, but my Cayman S is the quietest car I've ever owned. If you asked me for the ONE thing I'd want to change on it, above all else, it would be to give it a louder, more emotional exhaust system. Loud my ass...

It's not remotely loud inside for a stock vehicle with the engine mounted directly behind your head.

It's loud - but when it sounds so good its not a problem! The Porsche flat 6 is one of the best engines of all time.

To sum up this thread - A Cayman blows a way a BRZ at every level but it's not really fair to compare something at such a substantially different price point. besides, Porsche is a benchmark for cars 3 and 4 times more expensive.

For the money a BRZ is a solid choice for a n exceptionally fun street car.

Besides - nobody buys a new car under 100K anyways for the purpose of tracking.