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Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting What these cars were built for!


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Old 06-11-2013, 09:45 PM   #1
CSG Mike
 
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Got a track related question? I'll try to answer.

Gonna try to turn this into a giant Q&A.

Post your question, and I'll answer to the best of my ability (or try to find you the answer and cite sources).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlysh View Post
Does the transmision on these cars can handle good track days? I want to autox and go to sebrin
We haven't had any issues yet, and our car has about 25k miles of mixed use as of now. The real answer remains to be seen, but it's not designed to handle a huge amount of torque. Synchros will of course see accelerated wear if you're doing a lot of brisk, high-rpm shifts. I'd recommend using a high quality fluid in the trans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave-ROR View Post
Why are you so slow?
I drive flat out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by radroach View Post
What are some good 2-day racing / track education courses in the south?
I'm in SoCal, so these are just based on what I hear from other drivers.

http://www.chinmotorsports.com/
http://nasa-se.com/
http://www.drivenasafl.com/
http://www.scca.com/about/?cid=44433

You can also look into Skip Barber; they're expensive, but generally get excellent reviews.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ayau View Post
S2k or brz?
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLuveKetchup View Post
We already know the answer to this...
Knowing I'm going to get crap for this, S2k. The BRZ/FRS is still a new platform and bugs are still being worked out, and the frontrunners are still figuring out "what works".

And topless girls get all the guys. Or is that more gas less wet?





Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyB View Post
At what level of modified grip (tires/suspension) does the engine oiling system need to be modified?

I see a lot of Subie wrx's die at the track with apparent bottom end failure from oil starvation. High G corners with sticky tires seems like dry-sump will eventually be needed like the P cars run.
The highest grip tires I've driven is @robispec's car on Hoosier A6. The car, afaik, did not have any oil starvation issues, and I'm pretty damn attentive when it comes to lights and warnings.

That being said, if you look at our engine failure, the journal bearing on our cyl 2 is pretty heavily damaged, but our oil level wasn't ever low, and we never ran anything stickier than a 235 R-Comp, ever.

The absolute limit of lateral G before oil starvation is yet to be determined. However, the oil pan design seems to be pretty good for pickup...





Quote:
Originally Posted by markitect View Post
Where(rpm) do you downshift (whats your cutoff for the extra shift being worth the extra torque)?
It really depends on how long you're going to be in that lower gear. If you were to go strictly by the numbers, you want to downshift (if it's possible) anytime you're lower than 6k rpm. In reality, I rarely downshift unless I'm under 5k, unless it's in a higher gear (in which case I shouldn't be in the wrong gear to begin with).

Data is the best way to determine this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RYU View Post
How do I grow a bigger pair of cajones?

(Heart says GO! Brain says... NO!)
Have someone with a larger pair drive your car and/or sit with them (if they have the same/similar car). When you see that someone else can do it, you'll gain more confidence in your own car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swift996 View Post
How significant are lighter weight wheels on cornering speeds/lap times? Do you gain mostly in braking/accelerating?

Also I feel like my transmission is getting rocked around as the shift nob moves all over the place through corners and over bumps..will harsher mounts really improve anything or more just feel?

For camber is -1.8F and -1.2R a good set up for street use and occasional track (HPDE) use?
It's difficult to quantify in lap times. While they do have an effect in reducing rotational inertia and unsprung mass, your average driver will likely benefit more from seat time and experience, than a single mod like lighter wheels. Don't get me wrong, even little mods all contribute to a potentially faster lap time. If I were to put a figure on it, I'd guesstimate a quarter second on a 2 minute lap.

Harsher mounts will reduce play. Long term effects are still unknown, but based on anecdotal evidence from other cars, I'd speculate that it'll reduce movement, and increase wear on the components that are being stressed more by the lack of movement.

If you're trying to find a good balance of tire life and maximizing tire potential on grip, that seems to be a pretty fair amount of camber. Adjust according to wear to maximize life; adjust by pyrometer for maximum grip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by track junkie View Post
  • What average oil temperatures do you see on track after about 20 minutes?
  • Would oem rear brake pads take the heat, after around 20 minute track sessions, and still survive for many sessions?
  • Is there any good dual purpose street/track brake pad you would recommend for the front brakes for someone wanting long rotor and pad life?
  • Do you feel that the brakes are not used much on track due to the lower top speeds?
  • Do you find driving instructors hurt lap times too much due to their added weight and it's better to drive solo?
Thank you,
Tom
270F has been reported, but YMMV. We haven't logged temps ourselves.

Will OEM rear pads last with front race pads? Sure. Keep in mind, your brake bias will be at the front, and you're going to be overworking the fronts, leading to significantly decreased front brake pad life. I recommend using similar compounds front and rear. If you don't do the pedal dance, then your rears will overheat and wear quickly.

Compromise/mixed-duty/hybrid pads are, by definition, a compromise. Nothing does it all. That being said, I street drive on race pads, and with proper bedding, noise is minimal; my setup easily passes the "girl test". If you want long pad life, invest in a big brake kit, and proper brake cooling (ducts).

Brakes not used much compared to what?

If you have/need an in-car instructor, forget about your lap times. Focus on the coaching you're getting, and your lap times will naturally drop. If you're still carrying an in-car instructor, their knowledge and guidance will far outweigh the extra weight. FWIW, the extra weight isn't a huge lap time difference to begin with. In my case, less than 1s on a 2:00 lap with a ~160lb passenger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleFester View Post
What camber and caster would you recommend?
I don't know... what car would you recommend? The more data you can provide me, the more data I can interpret and give you feedback on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawnst3ar View Post
Stupid question, but kinda track related. Where does one go to get helmets? I cant seem to find anyplace near Dallas that has them that I can try on. I have a large melon, and helmets (football, for example) have always been a problem for me, in size, comfort, etc. and I would really prefer to put it on before I buy one....
Try your local motorcycle/powersports store, or ask nicely at an event (and use a head sock)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorpedo View Post
What would be your top 10 AutoX and HPDE performance/preventative maintenance "modifications" for the budget minded driver? Many of us new owners are young, without a ton of money to throw at the car, but want to enjoy it for what it is meant for. While I realize AutoX and tracking the car are ENTIRELY different situations, what are the best things you can do to add performance and maximize the life of the vehicle in its entirety?

FWIW from my research the winner is a tire upgrade, followed by things like upgraded differential fluid (as some have found it to be "burnt" after track use), crash bolts, pads, sway bar etc...
Top 10 mods? Even the CSG car only has 4... but lets see what I can come up wit

Budget friendly and what I consider essential mods in Italics.

Performance:
- Good dampers (cannot stress this enough)
- Camber Bolts and/or camber plates
- Alignment (only if you have alignment mods... otherwise you can only do toe)
- Good tires

Preventative mods/parts/maintenance
- Appropriate brake pads front and rear, not just front; prevents brake fade (you don't want your brakes to stop working)
- Appropriate brake fluid; prevents brake fluid from boiling or pedal getting mushy (same as above)
- Big brake kit (reduces operating cost SUBSTANTIALLY)
- Alignment (bad alignment will increase tire wear and decrease performance)
- Good fluids for oil, trans, diff (something that can take high temps)
- Oil cooler (keeps oil... cooler)
- Larger Radiator (stock radiator barely keeps engine cool)
- Tune (until they fix that transient ignition timing map thats destroying injector collars..)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorpedo View Post
Also, if the answer to my first question didn't cover this, how concerned should us weekend warriors be with all the elasticity of the rear end? Do you think this compliance helps with component life in general, or would stiffening things up be better for the twins?

Again, I realize these questions lay heavily on preference, but your opinion will certainly be taken more seriously than all those of the keyboard warriors on this forum.
Compliance generally reduces NVH, and increases life by absorbing the shock loads. The CSG BRZ is using all stock components when it comes to compliance, EXCEPT for the TiC steering rack bushings (which is used to increase feedback to the driver through the steering wheel).

If I were building a high budget race car, bushings would be on my short list... but I wouldn't want to daily drive that car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oofie View Post
Question: Why would a BBK reduce operating costs substantially? Is it because of worn out rotors?
This is directly applicable to the AP Racing "sprint" kit that we use on our shop car, but for the most part apply to any BBK. The Sprint kit happens to have these qualities to an extreme. We have access to the ENTIRE Stoptech, Brembo, AP Racing, and Alcon lines, and specificly chose the Sprint kit as it has the lowest long term operating cost

- The pads last longer and are thicker; the pads themselves are larger, offering more heat sink mass, and have more pad material (almost 2x the mass of the stock pad). The key here, is that pad cost is almost the same! Talk about value...
- The Rotors last longer (they're thicker, and have WAY more surface area for cooling faster)
- The kit as a whole keeps the entire braking system cooler, again, leading to the ability to use less aggressive, less expensive pads while maintaining function, reducing pad cost, and again, longer pad life
- The Rotors are two piece, and only cost marginally more than OEM rotors (~50% more) while offering substantially more life (300% and counting on our set)
- Brake fluid is lasting longer; we've yet to bleed the system after we originally installed it.

Additionally, see this thread for more info on why we chose the AP.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36766

Quote:
Originally Posted by RehabJeff86 View Post
Hi CSG Mike, what transmission and diff oil would you recommend for weekend trackies? TIA
We use Motul Gear 300 in the transmission, and Motul Gear 300LS in the differential. The Gear300LS has a friction modifier, and slightly changes the characteristic of the torsen, and is also usable in some clutch type diffs. However, if you want to safe a few bucks (~7), you can also use Gear300 in the diff.

These fluids are multiweight, but are slightly thicker, so please keep in mind the gears will feel notchy when it's cold, and you'll hear the LSD "locking up" when it's cool outside and the car is not warmed up (under 50F, and making a U-turn when the car is completely cold). The tradeoff is the fluid's ability to handle more heat and abuse without breaking down.

That being said, any high quality fluid will work, and you can't go wrong as long as you have something good. I'd recommend a full synthetic, and use the Motul stuff personally in my S2k.

Quote:
Originally Posted by derek1ee View Post
do you have oil cooler installed? which brand? if not, why?
No we do not. The oil does get hot, but the ECU will pull timing to preserve the engine. We do, in the long run, plan on getting an oil cooler setup, and will likely have something custom made. If demand is there, CSG may offer a kit.

We run Motul 300V oil, and seeing 270F has zero effect on the oil itself in terms of breaking down or losing ability to lubricate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyRx View Post
I have camber bolts and WL camber plates. On a stock susp/wheels/tires, what camber/toe would you recommend for street and track?

I could see an upgrade in break pads (SS lines installed), do you think a Koyo rad is money down the drain for track use, DD car? Would you prefer a different mod in about the same price range as the Koyo rad, exclude hp gains? Fluids are cheap so my objective is to keep hp the same but aid in cooling, breaking, and turning.

Thx!
How much experience do you have with a loose car? My "typical" advice for anyone who isn't comfortable with a floaty/drifty/"always wants to rotate" car is to have a slight amount of toe-in both front and rear. While this isn't 100% ideal for performance, you're sacrificing maybe 1% performance for a HUGE increase in stability, both highway and on track. 1/16" total toe-in front, and 1/16" to 1/8" total toe-in rear (depending on preference, try less first). That being said, I prefer the CSG BRZ to be at 0 toe front and rear.

Alignment is frequently used as a band-aid fix for handling/suspension/balance problems that are caused by other parts. Sways and tire pressures are also common bandaids.

Brakes and radiator is ALWAYS a great choice. The car runs hot from the factory, and keeping temps down will help EVERYTHING under the engine bay, not just the engine, last longer. SS lines are strictly a preference thing, but brake lines, IMO, are a wear and tear item that should be replaced regularly. You don't want to have a brake line fail on you, ever. I change brake lines on my S2k roughly every 20 track days, but on the BRZ, you can likely go longer, as the brakes don't get as hot.

CSG is working on a cooling solution that will be a direct drop-in replacement for the OEM radiator that is more efficient. As with all the products we offer, it will not be the cheapest on the market, but it certainly will be one of the best products you can buy.

We use Speigler brake lines on the CSG BRZ. I have used Stoptech and Endless lines on my S2k. The Endless and Speigler lines are similar in construction quality and type, and are superior to the Stoptechs IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kvnchu View Post
Do springs from company to company vary? i.e eibach v tein v swift v hr?
Yes. The metallurgy is different, although difficult to quantify in words. Consistency is key though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rice_classic View Post
If I were to illustrate a slip angle on a graph, with the peak grip coming at 6 degrees of slip and I have 2 drivers that turn identical lap times but one runs on the front side of the curve (5-6 degrees of slip angle) while the other operates on the backside of the curve (6-7 degrees of slip), who is the better driver and why?

And yes, there is a right answer.


Hint and cheat: It's in the Ross Bentley "Speed Secret" books.
Psh, you must be kidding.

The lesser angle is the winner in a "general" sense, because he will grease out the tires slower.


Quote:
Originally Posted by distracteddev View Post
Do hub centric wheel spacers negatively effect performance on the track?
Hubcentric RINGS:

No, but I don't use them, because they might get stuck on the hub, which means you're going to potentially have issues putting on another set of wheels later. Additionally, plastic ones may deform and/or melt onto the hub or rim.

They're nice for "centering" the wheel, and taking the stress off of the lug nuts when you're initially tightening them, but ultimately, the lug nuts are what hold the wheel on, as well as force the wheel to center.

If you want to get super technical, they are added unsprung rotational mass.

Hubcentric SPACERS:

I wasn't aware that they made these, but spacers are fine as long as either you're using the proper extended studs, or are properly torquing them if the spacers give you an alternate set of studs.

Personally, I'd recommend you get extended studs (ARP) and use cheap ebay spacers, if you need spacers at all. There are times where I spend money, and there are times where I don't, and spacers are just giant shims in this case. The studs you should never skimp on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ayau View Post
Which SA rated helmet would you recommend in terms of weight and price?
What's your budget? This is one area where I'd spend as much as possible; you only get one chance in protecting your noggin. A lighter helmet will result in less fatigue on your neck.

Also, try on as many as you can, so that you can find one that fits your head best. It's kind of like how everyone's head is either an Arai or Shoei shape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raul View Post
@CSG Mike

Still sort of new to the brake pad world. Can you shed some light for me on how to determine remaining pad life? I have a set of HP+ pads with 2 track days on them that I used on OEM tires. Frankly, they look great to me, but I want to make sure I'm not missing something a more experienced eye would catch. I can take pictures if you'd like as well.
I go by visual inspection. Pad life remaining can be determined by pad thickness. You *CAN* run the pads to the backing on most makes, but you don't want to score the rotors by having the backing actually touch the rotor (this is indicated by a grinding sound and shuddering feel in the pedal). Street pads typically have indicators built in that will cause noise when you get low (around 2mm pad material typically). New pads are usually 10-11mm (pad material) thick, unless you run a BBK like the AP Racing BBK we run, which uses 16mm pads (for virtually the same price!).

If you take the pads off, you can see if there are signs of glazing/fading. If you post pictures, I'll be more than happy to give you my feedback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brillo View Post
I've got a question about gear shifting and letting out the clutch. One the street I drive pretty smooth (I think I may be over cautious) and release the clutch slow enough to minimize the driventrain lash/thunk/stress from quickly letting out the clutch.

In terms of performance driving, how much stress/thunk/lash can you put on the clutch/engine mounts etc...as you shift gears without long term damage? I don't ever drop launch the car from a stop but I'd like to know how far I can push the drivetrain with quick shifts from say 1st to 2nd, or quick downshifts from 4th, to 3rd or 2nd.
This is another one of those "long term" questions that have not yet been answered, simply because nobody's had their car long enough!

That being said, as long as you're not SLAMMING gears, you should be okay. The stock clutch doesn't grab hard enough to REALLY shock the gears; you'll notice a screeching noise if you do really really hard shifts. This is the clutch slightly slipping on that fast shift, which is absorbing some of the shock load.

Last edited by CSG Mike; 08-02-2013 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:50 PM   #2
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Does the transmision on these cars can handle good track days? I want to autox and go to sebrin
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:53 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlysh View Post
Does the transmision on these cars can handle good track days? I want to autox and go to sebrin
We haven't had any issues yet, and our car has about 25k miles of mixed use as of now. The real answer remains to be seen, but it's not designed to handle a huge amount of torque. Synchros will of course see accelerated wear if you're doing a lot of brisk, high-rpm shifts. I'd recommend using a high quality fluid in the trans.
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:53 PM   #4
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Why are you so slow?
__________________
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DD: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE || Rotting ex-DD: 1995 BMW M3 || Tow Vehicle: 2004 GMC Sierra 2500 8.1L || Weekend toy: 1994 MR2 Turbo || The other weekend toy: 1993 MR2 Turbo || Track car: 1998 Integra Type-R || Race car: 1996 Integra GS-R || And another 2000 Integra GS-R

Too many cars.. never.
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:57 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave-ROR View Post
Why are you so slow?
I drive flat out.
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:59 PM   #6
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I drive flat out.
Well played, sir.
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Old 06-11-2013, 10:02 PM   #7
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What are some good 2-day racing / track education courses in the South?
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Old 06-11-2013, 10:06 PM   #8
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What are some good 2-day racing / track education courses in the south?
I'm in SoCal, so these are just based on what I hear from other drivers.

http://www.chinmotorsports.com/
http://nasa-se.com/
http://www.drivenasafl.com/
http://www.scca.com/about/?cid=44433

You can also look into Skip Barber; they're expensive, but generally get excellent reviews.
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Old 06-11-2013, 11:51 PM   #9
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S2k or brz?
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:00 AM   #10
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S2k or brz?
We already know the answer to this...
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:16 AM   #11
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So wich one you recomend for a weekend track racing
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Old 06-12-2013, 06:47 AM   #12
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At what level of modified grip (tires/suspension) does the engine oiling system need to be modified?

I see a lot of Subie wrx's die at the track with apparent bottom end failure from oil starvation. High G corners with sticky tires seems like dry-sump will eventually be needed like the P cars run.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:28 AM   #13
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Where(rpm) do you downshift (whats your cutoff for the extra shift being worth the extra torque)?
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Old 06-12-2013, 11:31 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ayau View Post
S2k or brz?
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLuveKetchup View Post
We already know the answer to this...
Knowing I'm going to get crap for this, S2k. The BRZ/FRS is still a new platform and bugs are still being worked out, and the frontrunners are still figuring out "what works".

And topless girls get all the guys. Or is that more gas less wet?



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