SCCA Solo C Street Discussion

[Shark_Bait88]

In respect to something like autocross, the FR-S and BRZ are fairly different cars in my opinion because of the difference in OE suspension.

With nearly twice the difference between front and rear rates, the FR-S is a much more tail-happy car than the BRZ. Subaru tuned their car to have a somewhat neutral feel, generally causing it to understeer/push a bit more than the FR-S. So they're really cars tuned for drivers with different style.

The rates on the TRD springs are essentially a stiffer version of the stock springs, in terms of the difference between f/r rates. So in my mind adding TRD springs to a BRZ would just make it handle like an FR-S.

Is that something you really want? It may not actually make the car faster if your driving style isn't suited to that sort of tail-happy rear bias suspension tuning. If you were actually looking to give the cars "equal" upgrades it mean being able to put stiffer lowering springs on the BRZ that more closely mirror the suspension characteristics of the stock car, so something with closer to squared off rates.

It seems to me that in the matter of performance/competitive driving, where suspension setup plays a major role, they are actually fairly different cars.

[simpleisbest]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

The rates on the TRD springs are essentially a stiffer version of the stock springs, in terms of the difference between f/r rates.

Not to nitpick, but I don't recall seeing any published spring rates for the TRD kit. While everyone assumes it is the same as the Eibach kit, that still is only an assumption.

If you have any data on the spring rates, please share!!!

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

Not to nitpick, but I don't recall seeing any published spring rates for the TRD kit. While everyone assumes it is the same as the Eibach kit, that still is only an assumption.

If you have any data on the spring rates, please share!!!

The suspension options thread lists rates for the TRD springs: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8739 although every other source I can find simply says "proprietary rates."

Granted, I don't know their source. I am operating off of that information, my own experience/knowledge of how the automotive aftermarket industry works, and the assumption that the springs are supplied by Eibach and very similar to the ProKit springs.

So I suppose I cannot be certain of the information and my assumptions, but I do believe it's a safe bet given informaton available.

[simpleisbest]

My local shop took a shot once at measuring the spring rates. They found that rates were not much more than OEM, however as they are progressive the findings were inconclusive. I would say though, that being that the TRD springs are also meant to be sold "factory equipped" on the Release Series FR-S, it would be doubtful that they are as high as the Eibach Pro-Kit.

[solort]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

In respect to something like autocross, the FR-S and BRZ are fairly different cars in my opinion because of the difference in OE suspension.

With nearly twice the difference between front and rear rates, the FR-S is a much more tail-happy car than the BRZ. Subaru tuned their car to have a somewhat neutral feel, generally causing it to understeer/push a bit more than the FR-S. So they're really cars tuned for drivers with different style.

The rates on the TRD springs are essentially a stiffer version of the stock springs, in terms of the difference between f/r rates. So in my mind adding TRD springs to a BRZ would just make it handle like an FR-S.

Is that something you really want? It may not actually make the car faster if your driving style isn't suited to that sort of tail-happy rear bias suspension tuning. If you were actually looking to give the cars "equal" upgrades it mean being able to put stiffer lowering springs on the BRZ that more closely mirror the suspension characteristics of the stock car, so something with closer to squared off rates.

It seems to me that in the matter of performance/competitive driving, where suspension setup plays a major role, they are actually fairly different cars.

So what are the official TRD spring rates vs FRS spring rates? I have never been able to find those numbers...

They don't really feel any stiffer to me, just seems to lower the car...

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by solort

So what are the official TRD spring rates vs FRS spring rates? I have never been able to find those numbers...

They don't really feel any stiffer to me, just seems to lower the car...

See my response to simpleisbest.

I'm running off of information on the suspension options thread, and the general assumption that the TRD springs are an Eibach Pro-Kit with slightly different rates.

[Locust]

Well it looks like RaysWheels doesn't have a single Volk Racing brand in OEM size anymore. Everything was discontinued. =(

[C4RBON]

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

FRSport Double Adjustable Bilsteins...

http://www.frsport.com/index.php?tar...0176ef9a4bfb0b

Wow those are expensive! The Bilstein adjustable coilovers are about $1500 less. I realize these are custom-made but still... I think I'd rather just get the coilovers and move up to STX.

[C4RBON]

Originally Posted by Locust

Well it looks like RaysWheels doesn't have a single Volk Racing brand in OEM size anymore. Everything was discontinued. =(

The BBS RF is the only forged 17x7 wheel I've found so far. It's right around 14 lbs/wheel. TireRack just started selling the 17x7.5" model, so I am somewhat hopeful that BBS USA & TireRack will make the 17x7" model available for sale here as well. The RPF1 still has an offset advantage because the 7" RF has a 48mm offset vs the 42mm offset of the Enkei.

http://www.nengun.com/bbs/rf

[Locust]

Originally Posted by C4RBON

The BBS RF is the only forged 17x7 wheel I've found so far. It's right around 14 lbs/wheel. TireRack just started selling the 17x7.5" model, so I am somewhat hopeful that BBS USA & TireRack will make the 17x7" model available for sale here as well. The RPF1 still has an offset advantage because the 7" RF has a 48mm offset vs the 42mm offset of the Enkei.

http://www.nengun.com/bbs/rf

I guess I'll contact the local BBS dealers and also TireRack and see if they can work something out. Thanks dude!

[C4RBON]

Anyone with an FRS that didn't get port-installed TRD parts is also at a disadvantage, not just BRZ owners. I'm sure there are lots of people that started autocrossing after buying their FRS. These people didn't scrutinize the rule book or make their purchase decision based on autocross competitiveness.

The Street class rules aren't in place to level the playing field between nearly-identical cars. The classes are designed so anyone can show up with their DD and compare their performance to other people with similar cars. As the "intro" class for beginners with street cars, the biggest performance variable is and always will be the driver. Next would be tires.

One idea would be to bump the TRD equipped FRS to B street, and then make a rule allowing port-installed options to be uninstalled and replaced with the "normal" part. TRD part owners who are just casually autocrossing probably won't care about the classing. They'll be happy they beat Mustangs/Camaros/Corvettes in raw times. Serious people who thought they were getting an advantage in CS are simply losing that advantage. They can choose to remove the TRD stuff, race in BS, or move up to STX. Someone serious about competing in CS shouldn't be too upset that they have to spend another $300 for CS legal springs if they are already getting light wheels, tires, shocks, and a light catback to be competitive.

[C4RBON]

Originally Posted by Locust

I guess I'll contact the local BBS dealers and also TireRack and see if they can work something out. Thanks dude!

If you hear something about getting 17x7" RFs in the US, let us know. There is a BBS RF thread in the wheels forum, too.

I thought about ordering them from Nengun in Japan, but by the time you factor in shipping and the "risk" surrounding a purchase like that, I decided I can live with stock wheels or RPF1s for autocross.

[simpleisbest]

Originally Posted by C4RBON

Anyone with an FRS that didn't get port-installed TRD parts is also at a disadvantage, not just BRZ owners. I'm sure there are lots of people that started autocrossing after buying their FRS. These people didn't scrutinize the rule book or make their purchase decision based on autocross competitiveness.

The Street class rules aren't in place to level the playing field between nearly-identical cars. The classes are designed so anyone can show up with their DD and compare their performance to other people with similar cars. As the "intro" class for beginners with street cars, the biggest performance variable is and always will be the driver. Next would be tires.

One idea would be to bump the TRD equipped FRS to B street, and then make a rule allowing port-installed options to be uninstalled and replaced with the "normal" part. TRD part owners who are just casually autocrossing probably won't care about the classing. They'll be happy they beat Mustangs/Camaros/Corvettes in raw times. Serious people who thought they were getting an advantage in CS are simply losing that advantage. They can choose to remove the TRD stuff, race in BS, or move up to STX. Someone serious about competing in CS shouldn't be too upset that they have to spend another $300 for CS legal springs if they are already getting light wheels, tires, shocks, and a light catback to be competitive.

Not quite sure you understand the rules regarding port options. They can be installed AFTER you initially purchase the car, you know. You do not need to purchased the options "as installed" from the factory to be class legal.

Also, it is a huge misconception that Street(Stock) classes are for beginners. The class are designed to be the lowest level of prep, thus putting more emphasis on driver vs set-up. If you look at the group of drivers that regularly compete in the Street classes nationally, you'll find many of the champs are very far from being beginners.

The TRD parts still do not take away from the "low prep definition" since they are standardized and non-adjustable, ie...if you are competing against someone else in a TRD equipped FR-S, it's still comes down to the driving

[Locust]

Seriously the performance difference between the TRD equipped FR-S and the non-TRD FR-S/BRZ is not significant enough to warrant pushing it to B-Street. A lot of you are acting like it's a 1 second, for sure victory kind of advantage. Are you at a slight disadvantage? Yes. Is it too much to overcome with better driving? No.

There's not a single class in SCCA where there isn't at least one type of car at a disadvantage. It's impossible to make it fair for everyone.