Sound System Upgrade - Lots of Questions from a Relative Newbie

[Stang70Fastback]

Hi guys. This will be my first real post on this forum, so I'll quickly introduce myself. I'm 24, and I've owned exactly ONE car my entire life: a 1998 Subaru Legacy Outback Limited with an auto trans (blah!), which currently has 276,000 miles on the odo.

If things work out the way they are supposed to work out, I will be acquiring a brand new BRZ in the next few months.

I am a bit of an audiophile, and I enjoy good sound. While I'm also a car nut in general, and I've done plenty of modifications to the Legacy (sway-bars, wheels, tires, brakes, etc...) I have decided that my first project with the BRZ will be to upgrade the sound system.

My experience with this sort of job is... minimal. I replaced the head unit in my Legacy, and upgraded all the speakers, and replaced the factory sub-woofer under the seat with a better amp/sub all-in-one unit. The result was some seriously great (relatively) sound, but I'm ready to take things to the next level and do a PROPER system in this BRZ.

I've started doing research and things have quickly gotten completely overwhelming, so I decided to start a thread here and start asking annoying questions so I can do things right. I would GREATLY appreciate any help you guys can give me. So, to start off with, here are some [long-winded] questions:

1. Speakers. The speaker locations and sizes already have me confused. My Legacy just has four 6" speakers, four 2" tweeters, and a sub. It was pretty straightforward. Looking at the BRZ, it has all kinds of speaker sizes. Offhand it appears as though there are 4 different sizes. Tweeters and larger 4" speakers on the dash, 6" speakers in the doors, and smaller "rear fill" speakers that most people say are pointless and should be removed entirely. What are people's thoughts on that?

In addition, the front dash-mount locations have me worried about sound quality. I was thinking that the sound reflecting off the windshield would likely sound odd and tinny, and some quick research shows I'm not the only person with that concern. Some people say "it's fine" whereas others go so far as to fabricate custom molds to hold the speakers and point them into the cabin. I'm not afraid to tear into the car, but I'm not particularly interested in fabricating custom speaker mounts (mostly because I don't really have enough experience or tools to do it in a manner that will satisfy my requirements as far as maintaining an OEM look, as some others have managed to accomplish.) What should I be expecting in terms of sound from these locations?

2. Wiring. In my current car, I simply re-used all of the stock wire. However, I want to do things properly this time, which means adding a dedicated amplifier. I imagine this means running new wires throughout the vehicle. Can someone explain a basic setup to me? Would I basically be running RCA cables from the head unit to the amplifier, and then regular speaker wire out of that to all the speakers in the vehicle? Could I splice into the factory wires so that I don't have to run new wires in the doors, or should I plan on yanking out ALL the old wire and just starting fresh? I have done a fair bit of dis-assembly in my current car (wires under kick panels, dAmplifier in the doors) but I haven't ever messed with running NEW wires into and out of the doors, for example.

3. Parts. What basic parts am I looking for? Again, I am NOT looking for a system that will rattle my trunk. I listen to all sorts of music, but my family was raised classical, so I am looking for something that I can turn up the volume, close my eyes, and sound like I'm in the MIDDLE of a full orchestra, and then just as easily play crappy dubstep without distortion, or blast Queen. So offhand, the parts I am thinking I will need are:

- Crapload of wire
- 2 tweeters
- 2 mid-range? full range? speakers for the dash
- 2 woofers in the door
- (nothing, in the rear speakers?)
- 1 10" or so woofer in the trunk off to the side
- 1 amplifier (multi-channel? how many channels do I need?)
- Do I need crossover stuff, or is that taken care of in the amplifier?

I don't even know what a "good" brand is. I can't afford to spend $500 for each individual speaker, but I'm willing to spend more than $70 as I did for a pair of Pioneers with tweeters in my current car. Are Pioneer/Kenwood/etc... "good" brands in the same way that Black and Decker is a "good brand?" (In other words, the best of the cheap brands?)

4. Electrical upgrades. I've heard a lot of talk about a "big three" upgrade - I am aware of what that means. Is that necessary since I'm not putting together an earth-pounding 5,000W sound system?

Thanks once again to anyone who might have actually had the patience to read this thread and offer some initial tips and insight to help me get started on this research. I think my biggest issue is that every time I find some "guide" that I hope will answer all of my questions, it tends to be a guide on how to install a sound system for competition, which means 40 subs, and 3 amps, and taking up the entire trunk with equipment, and that turns me off.

I still plan on daily-driving and tracking this BRZ, and I am not about to add 300 lbs of equipment to the car, nor do I want to compromise the trunk in any way other than with a custom-fitted sub-woofer enclosure off to one side. In fact, other than that sub, I don't want anyone to be able to TELL that the sound system is modified. The only weight I intend to add to the vehicle is that of a sub-woofer, an amplifier hidden away somewhere and some sound insulation in the doors. I also don't intend on removing the spare tire.

[labskaus]

Take a look at this thread click especially into the gallery that is linked.

Just to give you some ideas on it.

It is a 1,25 inch tweeter, 4inch midrange, 6,5 inch midsub and 10inch subwoofer in the back. Amplifiers are a 5 Channel amp (4x80Watt plus 1x300Watt) and a 2 channel amp (2x150Watt)

Cables: Tweeter and Midrange with 2,5qmm, MidSub and Sub with 4qmm. all cables in sleeves

I run the system active since I have a DSP with active crossover. If you do not want to invest that much money, you can work with passive crossover.

[Wyllliam]

related to the location of the tweeters.
They are specifically positioned so the reflection on the windscreen gives the same effect as tweeters that are directly pointed in to the cabin.
I know toyota has specific requirements for tweeter location to make sure that the soundwaves are always go inwards the cabin and prefferably to the driver.
So i don't think it nessecary to make custom molds for them.
Upgrading them should do the trick.

And for the wiring , i would replace all the wires because the more connections you have the more chance you have on a bad connection and 1 bad connection can mess up the sound quality due to a change in resistance.

Also All audio units from OEM's are tuned to have the best possible sound with the OEM's installed system.
So if you go to a complete new setup make sure you have an equalizer in the system so you can tune it to your liking.

[Zippy]

First off, Welcome to the forum and congrats on picking an 86!
As a recommendation, you may want to read posts at http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/ The entire site is dedicated to upgrading your car stereo yourself and has a lot of good people with experience doing what you are setting out to. There are several 86 owners that post there as well.

On to the questions:

1. Speakers: On the dash we have a 1" tweeter and a 4" mid range, in the doors are a 6.5" mid bass, and as rear fill we have a 4" in a cavity. Most people say do not bother with the rear fill for simplicity. It's a lot easier to tune just a front stage. On the flip side, rear speakers allow for tuning options that will improve the front sound stage greatly. I have rear fill in my BRZ. As to the dash speaker, they are put there on purpose. They will sound wonderful there. One thing you will want to start with is sound deadening and sealing up the doors. The is a lot of rattle to the doors on the 86's. As to what brand of speakers to look at, on diyma there are a lot of people that really like dayton audio speakers. http://www.parts-express.com/brand/dayton-audio/301 They are fairly inexpensive and sound good. I have not heard them myself, just sharing what I have heard from others.

2. Wiring: Factory speaker wire tends to be really thin. You can improve a factory stereo by just replacing the wiring. There is a noticeable difference. You will want to get wire and run your own. Take a look at the build logs stickied at the beginning of this sub-forum. Several have routing paths laid out for speaker wires.

3. Parts:
1 pair 1" tweeter in dash
3-4" mid range in dash(3" can be easier to fit in)
6.5" mid bass for the doors
Rear fill can be added later if you feel there is something missing
Sub, go with a prebuilt like a JL Stealthbox and a sub that fits your budget
amps(I'd recommend two 4 channel amps, you can bridge 2 channels for the sub)
headunit(Stock BRZ does not have RCA output)
sound deadener(inexpensive and easy to DIY with big bang to sound quality)
DSP(I would recommend getting one with auto-tuning as a good starting point)

The DSP will act as a crossover for each speaker. It will allow you to time align each speaker for the best sound imaging and clarity. This may be the most expensive part listed. I recommend looking for a used one with auto tuning and 8 channel output.

I can't stress enough the importance of sound deadener. Removing the rattles from areas of the car that are prone to. Also you may want to look into something like hushmat wave breakers which breaks up sound waves directed at it for right behind the 6.5" in the doors. This will prevent the sound waves in the door from reflecting back into the speaker that they originated from causing a little distortion.

4. Electrical upgrades: Not needed.

You can replace the factory amp in the trunk with one of the new amps and place the second one at the other inside corner by cutting some foam out. You will not have touched your spare tire or have blocked access to it.

I hope this helps. Don't be afraid to ask questions. The only stupid question is the one not asked.

[Stang70Fastback]

Thanks very much for the information. It seems every question I get answered leaves me with ten more questions though.

I certainly don't mind adding rear fill speakers if it doesn't add too much complexity. However, I'm trying to understand how all the wiring will be run, and it's really this that has me most curious. I'm running through the layout in my mind and this is what I've come up with:

I will be running one or two large gauge wires from the battery into the trunk which will power the two amplifiers. Then I have audio from the head unit which will also run into the trunk. This goes to the DSP, and then to the amps. From there it's a simple case of running wires from the amps to the speakers.

Now, when you suggested two four channel amps, and bridging two channels for the sub, this is where I start getting confused.

Q1: I assume a four channel amplifier can drive four sets of speakers, so when you suggest two four channel amps, that means I have 8 channels. If I use all of the factory speaker locations and add a sub-woofer, I end up with a need for 9 channels. Do the tweeters not use their own channels?

Q2: I'm also having trouble understanding how the DSP works. I know the goal of the DSP is to time each speaker so that they are all "shifted" to be equidistant from the listener in order to help clarify the sound. However, since this is only feeding audio to the amp, the only way I can see this functioning is for it to delay various frequencies in the audio stream. How does this pan out with aligning sound to individual speakers? Of course, some people tell me this time correction isn't necessary anyway, so now I don't know who to believe!

Q3: Dayton Audio seems to have a crap-load of speakers, and if they sound good, I suppose I could use those. However, are there speakers that are better suited to automotive applications? For example, I have noticed in a lot of builds that nobody uses those cups (baffles?) that go behind the speaker to protect it from water that drips into the door. At least I haven't noticed that in any of the builds I have looked at. I'm guessing it's a sound quality thing, but it makes me wonder whether or not I need to get speakers that are designed for cars, and therefore designed to get wet. I couldn't see any "application specific" speakers on their site. Just tons of sizes and specifications!

Q4: One issue I am always worried about when running my own wires is electrical interference. I see a lot of people bundling the power wires right along-side all of their audio cables. If you buy shielded cable, which is what I assume everyone is using, then do you pretty much not have to worry at all about where you run the wire?

[FreshFRS]

my answers are in bold under your questions

Originally Posted by Stang70Fastback

Q1: I assume a four channel amplifier can drive four sets of speakers, so when you suggest two four channel amps, that means I have 8 channels. If I use all of the factory speaker locations and add a sub-woofer, I end up with a need for 9 channels. Do the tweeters not use their own channels?

A. A four channel amp can drive four speakers, or 2 pairs of speakers IE tweeters + midranges. the second amp will drive the mid-bass drivers and bridge the last two channels to power the sub. this works out to using 8 channels in a 7 channel configuration.

Q2: I'm also having trouble understanding how the DSP works. I know the goal of the DSP is to time each speaker so that they are all "shifted" to be equidistant from the listener in order to help clarify the sound. However, since this is only feeding audio to the amp, the only way I can see this functioning is for it to delay various frequencies in the audio stream. How does this pan out with aligning sound to individual speakers? Of course, some people tell me this time correction isn't necessary anyway, so now I don't know who to believe!

A. The DSP is at the most basic level holding back or staggering the entire signal going to each channel of the amp for a different amount of time, this allows each speaker's sound waves to reach the ear at the same time.

Q3: Dayton Audio seems to have a crap-load of speakers, and if they sound good, I suppose I could use those. However, are there speakers that are better suited to automotive applications? For example, I have noticed in a lot of builds that nobody uses those cups (baffles?) that go behind the speaker to protect it from water that drips into the door. At least I haven't noticed that in any of the builds I have looked at. I'm guessing it's a sound quality thing, but it makes me wonder whether or not I need to get speakers that are designed for cars, and therefore designed to get wet. I couldn't see any "application specific" speakers on their site. Just tons of sizes and specifications!

A. i haven't run any Dayton equipment but i would guess that you will be able to use whatever speaker you want that fits within your power range and size needs, some guys are running house speakers that have good mechanical characteristics to run in vehicles.

Q4: One issue I am always worried about when running my own wires is electrical interference. I see a lot of people bundling the power wires right along-side all of their audio cables. If you buy shielded cable, which is what I assume everyone is using, then do you pretty much not have to worry at all about where you run the wire?

A. shielded cables are the way to go if you cannot avoid crossing wires and/or running wires in line with power supplies etc. i have a habit of sheathing each channel's cables and running them on the opposite side to the power supply to minimize interference, only have to cross once in a perpendicular (at a 90deg). i think it will be possible in this car to run the RCA's down the middle of the vehicle (im going to be custom mounting a DEX-p99rs Headunit that does not have an internal amp and uses RCA's for each channel).

On another note which amps are you planning to run?

[Zippy]

Q1: Each speaker is a channel. Left and right. 2 channels for the tweeters, 2 channels for the mid range, 2 channels for the mid bass, and the last channel you will have is sub. When you bridge an amplifier you are combining output of 2 channels to increase the power output. So a left 150 watt channel and a right 150 watt channel bridged will combine power output. The reason to do this is a sub generally will require more power than any other speaker. Also, a sub does not require stereo separation.

Q2: You've got part of what a DSP does. What you are describing is time alignment. Time alignment is a delay of the signal to the speakers. Normally this is measured in milliseconds. The other thing a DSP does is frequency equalization. This allows you to turn down frequency bright spots and add the frequency ranges where your speakers are lacking. This is something that can wait till later if you chose a head unit with a good EQ and time alignment and a set of components with passive crossovers. Those head units tend to be pricy and not offer a lot of other features you may want. Also component speaker can get up there in price.

Q3: I brought Dayton Audio up as an example of inexpensive speakers that sound good. There are plenty of brands out there. Go into some car audio stores and listen around. Post on the other forum I mentioned and get some input from there. You may be able to find some near you willing to let you hear their system and chat with you about car audio. That's where you can learn the most at the quickest pace.

Q4: I prefer to run power cables down the opposite side of the RCA cables and run insulated speaker wire down both sides. The RCA cables are not amplified so interference there will be most noticeable from my experience.

[Stang70Fastback]

My replies are in bold as well.

Originally Posted by FreshFRS

A. A four channel amp can drive four speakers, or 2 pairs of speakers IE tweeters + midranges. the second amp will drive the mid-bass drivers and bridge the last two channels to power the sub. this works out to using 8 channels in a 7 channel configuration.

Q. So in this setup, I would not be using the rear fill speakers, correct? Otherwise I need two more channels somehow.

A. The DSP is at the most basic level holding back or staggering the entire signal going to each channel of the amp for a different amount of time, this allows each speaker's sound waves to reach the ear at the same time.

Q. I guess I must be looking at the photos incorrectly. Every amp I am looking at has just "left and right" inputs, and then outputs for the speakers. Every head unit I look at has "left and right" outputs. Where, along the line, does the audio get split into each specific channel? Is it the DSP which does this, based on my frequency preferences? Should a good amp have individual inputs for each channel as well? So for a 7 channel setup, do I basically end up with a few RCA cables running from HU -> DSP, then 7 sets of wires running from DSP -> AMP -> Speakers? Sorry if I'm missing something obvious here...

A. i haven't run any Dayton equipment but i would guess that you will be able to use whatever speaker you want that fits within your power range and size needs, some guys are running house speakers that have good mechanical characteristics to run in vehicles.

Q. So do they install baffles behind the speakers to keep them dry? All I ever see installed are the pads at the back to break up the sound wave and keep it from reflecting, but I don't see anyone installing those baffle cup things that actually separate the speaker from the door to insulate it from the weather.

A. shielded cables are the way to go if you cannot avoid crossing wires and/or running wires in line with power supplies etc. i have a habit of sheathing each channel's cables and running them on the opposite side to the power supply to minimize interference, only have to cross once in a perpendicular (at a 90deg). i think it will be possible in this car to run the RCA's down the middle of the vehicle (im going to be custom mounting a DEX-p99rs Headunit that does not have an internal amp and uses RCA's for each channel).

Okay, so shielded cables should be fine. Perhaps I'll run the power cables down the left side, and then run RCA down the center, and speaker wires up the center and right just to be safe.

On another note which amps are you planning to run?

I have no idea yet. I'm still trying to figure out WHAT I need before I determine specifics (I'll likely wait until I own the car before determining that so I can see exactly where I want to put things and how much space I have. However, based on the fact that you are installing a $1,200 head unit, I'm assuming anything I end up with will be way below your level, lol. Damn that head unit looks nice.

[Stang70Fastback]

Replying to Zippy.

Originally Posted by Zippy

Each speaker is a channel. Left and right. 2 channels for the tweeters, 2 channels for the mid range, 2 channels for the mid bass, and the last channel you will have is sub. When you bridge an amplifier you are combining output of 2 channels to increase the power output. So a left 150 watt channel and a right 150 watt channel bridged will combine power output. The reason to do this is a sub generally will require more power than any other speaker. Also, a sub does not require stereo separation.

Okay, I got it. But I guess this means forgoing the rear fill speakers?

You've got part of what a DSP does. What you are describing is time alignment. Time alignment is a delay of the signal to the speakers. Normally this is measured in milliseconds. The other thing a DSP does is frequency equalization. This allows you to turn down frequency bright spots and add the frequency ranges where your speakers are lacking. This is something that can wait till later if you chose a head unit with a good EQ and time alignment and a set of components with passive crossovers. Those head units tend to be pricy and not offer a lot of other features you may want. Also component speaker can get up there in price.

Gotcha. And it seems like you've explained the difference between an "active" system (which I take it means a DSP that actively splits the signal in the manner I choose prior to it entering the AMP) and a "passive" system (which I assume means just some pre-set hardware that picks up only specific frequencies after the amp and filters them out for each speaker.) I can see now why "active" is preferred, and I suppose it would make more sense to go that route (plus it sounds to me that an active system would be simpler since you just have a DSP as opposed to all those passive, component block things you need to filter signals to different channels.

Looks like I'm going to have to find a local audio shop and have a good long talk about stuff(s) with them.

[Zippy]

As for the rear fill, correct. Try it out without first. Most people do not notice that the rear fill is missing.

The reason for going active is not that it is simpler. The reason for going active is that you have more control. You can adjust around the physical restrictions of what the speakers produce for sound and end up with an all around better sounding system. Also, what you learn in the car can be applied to the home. For your first DSP, my suggestion is that you get one that allows you to auto tune. That way you can poke around for yourself and see what different adjustments at certain frequencies have on the sound imaging of your system. If you hose something up you can auto tune it back.

My BRZ was my first car audio system with a DSP and I will never have another car audio system without a DSP.

[Stang70Fastback]

Thanks for all the insight Zippy. One last question. Can I ask what your specific setup is, and what equipment you are running? Just as some kind of starting point.

[Zippy]

Sure thing, I kinda went overboard on my BRZs stereo. It is pricey. Front stage is Hertz Mille MLK 3 PA, rear fill is Audison Voce 1.1 and 3.0. I have passive crossovers that came with each of the 3" & tweeter sets Audison & Hertz in use. I have an Arc Audio PS8 DSP. There is an Audison Voce AV12 sub. Two Hertz HDP4 amps providing power. For the head unit I'm using a few things, Pioneer AVH-X8500BHS running RCA cables to the DSP and a Pure i20 running toslink fibre optic cable to the DSP. Also there is an item that I want the mentioned in the video only.

I have a build log I've been intending to post, but have not had time to film the last piece. I may post it in the next day or two without the video and add the video at a later time.

[Stang70Fastback]

*Googles various parts*

[mid_life_crisis]

Keep in mind that because bass requires far more power than the higher frequencies, you will not need two identical amps. For example, depending on the speaker power handling, you might get a four channel 50 watt/channel amp for the dash and one that is 100 watts/ channel for the bass. One each for the doors and the others bridged for a sub.