Clutch Feel / Question

[Jakinit]

Originally Posted by Zentec

With no spring you can see that there is more play as there is no pressure brining the pedal back to full out position. This is also shown in the gif in the op post. This little travel has the same effect as resting your foot on the clutch pedal. So yes it can increase wear. If you don't think so why do we have a dead pedal in cars ?

So why add a spring from maker because it has a function to aid in over time. If not they would have not put it in there when engineering it. If you can't drive a clutch don't buy MT buy flappy Paddle or auto transmission. Any person that can really drive MT with skill this is irrelevant as they can adapt.

Now you're starting to attack people and make yourself look like an idiot in the process. It's there to make the clutch easier for everyone, mostly beginners. It makes it so that it takes less force to press the clutch down. Sure, I can get used to a soft mushy clutch, but why the hell would I want to when I can take 15 minutes and bring back a solid clutch feel. You're trying to say that the weight of the pedal by itself is the same as the weight of your foot on it? Cmon man.

[Zentec]

Originally Posted by Jakinit

Now you're starting to attack people and make yourself look like an idiot in the process. It's there to make the clutch easier for everyone, mostly beginners. It makes it so that it takes less force to press the clutch down. Sure, I can get used to a soft mushy clutch, but why the hell would I want to when I can take 15 minutes and bring back a solid clutch feel. You're trying to say that the weight of the pedal by itself is the same as the weight of your foot on it? Cmon man.

First I did not attack anyone. Second yes it's there to assist in pressing the pedal. It is in almost every newer car with a MT so like I said they engineered it there for a reason. Just like every car has an air filter in the air intake. Now if you don't like the feel of the spring change it. If you don't like the air filter change it to one that allows more air to pass. Do not remove something out of a working product. Tell me what will happen if you don't like the flow of your stock air filter so you remove it and close up the intake box. Same thing different part it will avetually cause a failure. So yes not having a spring there will make it feel heavier but leaves play in the pedal.

In the end it's your car! But you clearly don't know what your talking about. I don't want someone who is looking for actual help to ruin there car we are here to help people so I think you should be a little nicer.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by inferno56kb

Hi Guys and Gals

So I tried to search for this in the forums for about 2 hours now and didn't find anything that would answer my question so sorry in advance if this topic was already brought up at some point.

Here's some light reading for you. It leads up to my DIY but I thought you might appreciate the back story.

Removing the spring does nothing to change the travel. If you can bleed your own brakes then swapping the slave cylinder is no big deal.

There is absolutely no problem with removing the assist spring. I'm personally insulted by the bullshit statement that Mtec made. Those assholes can suck it.

[swarb]

@Zentec You have yet to prove your point. There is no extra "wear". It is an ASSIST spring. With or without the ASSIST spring, the piston is at the top of the travel as there is a spring INSIDE the clutch master cylinder, therefore there is no change in the function of the master cylinder itself, only the clutch pedal.
Just admit you're wrong and learn from it. We all make mistakes.

[inferno56kb]

Originally Posted by Zentec

First I did not attack anyone. Second yes it's there to assist in pressing the pedal. It is in almost every newer car with a MT so like I said they engineered it there for a reason. Just like every car has an air filter in the air intake. Now if you don't like the feel of the spring change it. If you don't like the air filter change it to one that allows more air to pass. Do not remove something out of a working product. Tell me what will happen if you don't like the flow of your stock air filter so you remove it and close up the intake box. Same thing different part it will avetually cause a failure. So yes not having a spring there will make it feel heavier but leaves play in the pedal.

In the end it's your car! But you clearly don't know what your talking about. I don't want someone who is looking for actual help to ruin there car we are here to help people so I think you should be a little nicer.

The Spring is not the issue here, as i've said and on that point I agree with pretty much all the other posters, i've been driving without it for 2 years now and there is absolutely no increased wear and there also won't be any because no it doesn't increase wear. Also a More apt analogy would actually be like how some bicycles come with supporting wheels to make it easier for someone who is not used to riding bikes to not fall over. Similarly the spring helps those that are not used to manual to lighten the pedal. In both cases you can remove the aid to get a more realistic feel and in both cases it won't impact anything in a negative way.

If you can't drive a clutch don't buy MT buy flappy Paddle or auto transmission. Any person that can really drive MT with skill this is irrelevant as they can adapt.

Like I already mentioned i have been driving 400HP manual cars in the last 15years, I live in Europe (Austria btw not Australia as someone said ) we pretty much only have manuals here and I've been tracking cars for the last 10years. This is not a question of "git gud" it just feel plain fucking bad because it's been made to be easy to handle for amateurs and therefore the feel it gives back to the driver has been sacrificed. If i'm tuning my car anyway why on gods green earth would I leave this part stock and no it's not irrelevant and no i won't adapt. You can adapt to eating raw vegetables every day as well doesn't mean i won't go ahead and start cooking instead to make it better.

Now please get back on topic and stop the bickering about the mod that i've already done and am happy with.

Originally Posted by fika84

Have you tried bleeding the clutch? Or messing with the pedal position? You obviously want to make sure that when the clutch is fully depressed that everything is engaged as normal, but you can move the engagement point around a little bit.

Yeah I did change the pedal position for a better feel. I have not bled the clutch yet but i'm guessing that will be a part of Ultramaroons guide so it might be the next step as soon as i've read through that. Thanks for the input

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Here's some light reading for you. It leads up to my DIY but I thought you might appreciate the back story.

Removing the spring does nothing to change the travel. If you can bleed your own brakes then swapping the slave cylinder is no big deal.

There is absolutely no problem with removing the assist spring. I'm personally insulted by the bullshit statement that Mtec made. Those assholes can suck it.

Thanks i'll read it and then reply back, i'm a bit on the run atm, but since some people already suggested your DIY i'm hopeful that it will be good
I know that the spring does nothing to change the travel, just wanted to mention it so that people don't suggest doing that first because i'm pretty sure that would have been suggested first ^^ since it does help with the general feel of the clutch a lot
Completely agree on the spring topic, it is almost impossible that it has any negative effect and as long as i don't see some empirical data to prove me otherwise I won't believe what a single guy says.

Edit: Read through the first 3 pages of that thread you posted. This is EXACTLY what i was talking about!!!! thanks

2nd Edit: Def gonna do this mod next week and see how it feels. It sounds like what I need so i'm hopeful for now. Thanks for the DIY and if I have any questions i'm gonna PM you probably

[LS1M]

I too have driven manual transmission cars before, and thought I was going crazy with my '15 brz. I couldn't feel the engagement point and it was heck taking off from a stoplight. It was really frustrating. When I took the spring out, I found I could drive again

The spring is pushing the pedal down, not up, right? So removing it should actually reduce wear because there's not any pressure on the clutch. I would think that a spring that pushes the pedal up to remove the slack is going to reduce any possible wear, but a spring that pushes it down (like the car is stock) is like very gently riding the clutch. I may be wrong, of course, and only have 18K on the car so far, but removing the clutch spring gave me back the joy of driving a manual transmission and no issues with it at all.

It only takes a small amount of time to remove the clutch assist spring and adjust the pedal height. I would suggest the OP try it before changing out parts. Worst case, you have to re-install the spring and go back to stock.

-Mark

[edit] always drink your coffee before posting, looks like the OP already did that, sorry <slurp> I'll wake up eventually... [/edit]

[churchx]

LS1M: wasn't it so, that depending on clutch pedal point spring both pushes up when you release pedal, and a bit pushes down near fully pressed pedal? I guess it might indeed dull things on relatively light stock clutch with stock clutch cylinder ratio, bit it might make things easier with aftermarket stiff clutches.

[fika84]

Originally Posted by churchx

LS1M: wasn't it so, that depending on clutch pedal point spring both pushes up when you release pedal, and a bit pushes down near fully pressed pedal? I guess it might indeed dull things on relatively light stock clutch with stock clutch cylinder ratio, bit it might make things easier with aftermarket stiff clutches.

That's the only reason I would see actually keeping it (or putting it back in) is if there was a crazy stiff pressure plate installed.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by LS1M

The spring is pushing the pedal down, not up, right? So removing it should actually reduce wear because there's not any pressure on the clutch.[/edit]

It's an over-center device like the spring in a light switch. It pushes up a teeny bit at the top of travel but as the pedal is depressed it pushes down with a rising rate.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by LS1M

It only takes a small amount of time to remove the clutch assist spring and adjust the pedal height. I would suggest the OP try it before changing out parts. Worst case, you have to re-install the spring and go back to stock

Isn't reinstalling the spring a huge PITA?


That's one of the main things that has kept me from removing it.


Does anyone on here have the Mtec spring? I feel like I never hear anything great about it.


I'm very tempted to remove my spring this week. I have owned this car for 4 years and I still get frustrated with the clutch feel.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Isn't reinstalling the spring a huge PITA?


That's one of the main things that has kept me from removing it.


Does anyone on here have the Mtec spring? I feel like I never hear anything great about it.


I'm very tempted to remove my spring this week. I have owned this car for 4 years and I still get frustrated with the clutch feel.

IMHO, leave the spring installed and go straight for the slave cyl.

Ignore the braided SS line. These are not the droids you're looking for.

[inferno56kb]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Isn't reinstalling the spring a huge PITA?


That's one of the main things that has kept me from removing it.


Does anyone on here have the Mtec spring? I feel like I never hear anything great about it.


I'm very tempted to remove my spring this week. I have owned this car for 4 years and I still get frustrated with the clutch feel.

I personally won't ever put back that spring, super glad i did that mod and i don't think the clutch can get heavy enough for me to consider putting it back personally, then again i'm a pretty big dude with strong legs. I think ultra reinstalled his after changing the slave cylinder, so maybe try that first.

I will report here once i've changed the slave cylinder on my car (which should be end of next week because the subi dealership didn't have the part on hand, the dude actually laughed because i ordered a couple of OEM parts before already that no one ever needed so he had to order them as well) and then i can tell you my impression of the clutch without spring, the new slave and adjusted pedal height.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by inferno56kb

I personally won't ever put back that spring, super glad i did that mod and i don't think the clutch can get heavy enough for me to consider putting it back personally, then again i'm a pretty big dude with strong legs. I think ultra reinstalled his after changing the slave cylinder, so maybe try that first.

I will report here once i've changed the slave cylinder on my car (which should be end of next week because the subi dealership didn't have the part on hand, the dude actually laughed because i ordered a couple of OEM parts before already that no one ever needed so he had to order them as well) and then i can tell you my impression of the clutch without spring, the new slave and adjusted pedal height.

I never reinstalled my spring but it's a sad story. I wrapped the perches in a paper towel to keep the dining room table clean and, well, ... trash day was the next morning.

It's just that I've done at least a dozen swaps for my friends here. A couple have opted to leave the spring installed. After driving them I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't really matter. Lightens the pedal a little.

[churchx]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Isn't reinstalling the spring a huge PITA?
That's one of the main things that has kept me from removing it.
Does anyone on here have the Mtec spring? I feel like I never hear anything great about it.
I'm very tempted to remove my spring this week. I have owned this car for 4 years and I still get frustrated with the clutch feel.

- if you have some vice, i'd say there is no PITA in reinstalling. You compress springs, put on and tighten with cable zip ties, turn, compress, tighten other spring side .. nothing killing. Mtec's might be possible bit easier to compress w/o extra tools, but stock too stiff.
- i have Mtec spring. Simply one of lesser spring rate then stock. Costs cheap, but then again i didn't feel enough difference in clutch feel after installing Mtec one instead of stock spring. Subjectively there was more difference with adjusting clutch pedal dead travel mod (don't go overboard, easy to get unnoticed slight clutch drag, that may add synchros wear/gear engagement harder).