Twins vs 2015 z06

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by Jaden

For you and others that like the stock twin, that's great. I'm happy for you.

No one is arguing that the stock vette isn't superior to a stock twin in every way...

I mean, saying that opens you up to being called captain obvious.

The question is with the same money that it costs for a new Z06, would the twin be superior..

Not what the resale value would be etc... would it be superior on the track with the same total cost.

I argue that with much less spent on a twin, it would be superior to what you could walk out of a dealership spending on a new Z06... Especially, if you do your own work on the twin...

The people I have a hard time with are the ones who say, you can't make a twin superior to a z06 no matter what you do to it, and that's just asinine.

Jaden

Let me add, if you can do your own work, buying a z06 would be asinine to me, because buying a entry vette and modding it with the same money as a z06, you could blow it's doors off...unless you just want to be able to say you have a z06...That just adds to the douchebaggery as far as I'm concerned... That's why I haven't liked the vette for a while, although the c7 is less douchey than previous iterations to me, I don't know why????

The Z06 is just like Godzilla. It's a lot of things that are engineered into the car from factory that is just 10x better than modding a cheaper car. Reliability is THE biggest factor here. I can't stress this enough.

You could turn out a VERY good 86 if you did all the work yourself like this guy.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49172

@mrk1 is possibly the only person with the skills and tools on hand to put this quest to the test. Not only can he fab up pretty much anything, its also VERY VERY good work.

See I could TRY to fab some of the stuff he has done but the quality would suck and unless you have been doing what he's been doing as a hobby for a VERY long time or actually work with metal like he does. You are going to end up with a really shitty end product that wont last but a few track days before blowing itself up.

Bottom line.

We need to know how much power the new Z06 puts to the ground. Secondly, how much down force the car makes and how well it turns.

Find a track and run the Z06 and see what times it puts down. (A Magazine will most likely do this at a track for your convenience) Then, record track day conditions that the Z06 ran under at that specific track; Humidity, Temperature, ect. This will be your baseline to beat.

Modify your 86 without molesting it. That means no roll cage, Stock ground clearance, ect.

If you want any chance at being as reliable as the Z06 you would need to run some serious gear on the engine

Engine:
Custom Low Compression Pistons
Custom Cams
Titanium Springs, Valves, Retainers
Stronger Bearings
Billet Crankshaft
Dry Sump
Engine Oil Cooler
Turbo Oil Cooler
Upgraded Radiator
Very large Intercooler
Meth Injection
Nitride coat EVERYTHING that you should.

Transmission:
Replace with something better like a T56 that can handle the TQ.
Or you can get a racing transmission either would work.
Transmission cooler

Rear end:
Drive shaft shop Axles and Drive Shaft
Full Blown 8.8 rear conversion

Suspension:
Ohlins or comparable would be acceptable

Brakes:
Any 6/4 Pot config would work

Aero:
Full Under body Plate
Rear-Downforce

Wheels:
Something beefy will do

The Engine alone would be the MOST expensive single upgrade of the entire vehicle. Hopefully it is assembled correctly and doesn't blow up during it's first start or during tuning. A small mistake could lead you to shelling out for an ENTIRE new engine build. 1 loose bolt could blow up your $15k - $20k engine. (This includes buying a crate engine with 0 miles on it and modifying it.)

If you can't post similar times to the Z06 at this point. Then hand your car off to the guy who set the lap time or someone with similar capabilities to see if they cant set a close enough lap time.

If you are still treading behind the only suggestion I can give you is to start replacing all the panels with carbon fiber and start shedding weight. You can paint over it to retain a stock-ish look.

EDIT
The Biggest advantage the Z06 has is that if something does break, you can walk down to the dealer and order a fresh new part. One off parts made for your 86 will be hard to replace in short notice. So on another note. You would have to make multiples of custom parts so you have them on hand because your car wont be covered under warranty with a free rental car you can use while your car is being repaired.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

The Z06 is just like Godzilla. It's a lot of things that are engineered into the car from factory that is just 10x better than modding a cheaper car. Reliability is THE biggest factor here. I can't stress this enough.

You could turn out a VERY good 86 if you did all the work yourself like this guy.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49172

@mrk1 is possibly the only person with the skills and tools on hand to put this quest to the test. Not only can he fab up pretty much anything, its also VERY VERY good work.

See I could TRY to fab some of the stuff he has done but the quality would suck and unless you have been doing what he's been doing as a hobby for a VERY long time or actually work with metal like he does. You are going to end up with a really shitty end product that wont last but a few track days before blowing itself up.

Bottom line.

We need to know how much power the new Z06 puts to the ground. Secondly, how much down force the car makes and how well it turns.

Find a track and run the Z06 and see what times it puts down. (A Magazine will most likely do this at a track for your convenience) Then, record track day conditions that the Z06 ran under at that specific track; Humidity, Temperature, ect. This will be your baseline to beat.

Modify your 86 without molesting it. That means no roll cage, Stock ground clearance, ect.

If you want any chance at being as reliable as the Z06 you would need to run some serious gear on the engine

Engine:
Custom Low Compression Pistons
Custom Cams
Titanium Springs, Valves, Retainers
Stronger Bearings
Billet Crankshaft
Dry Sump
Engine Oil Cooler
Turbo Oil Cooler
Upgraded Radiator
Very large Intercooler
Meth Injection
Nitride coat EVERYTHING that you should.

Transmission:
Replace with something better like a T56 that can handle the TQ.
Or you can get a racing transmission either would work.
Transmission cooler

Rear end:
Drive shaft shop Axles and Drive Shaft
Full Blown 8.8 rear conversion

Suspension:
Ohlins or comparable would be acceptable

Brakes:
Any 6/4 Pot config would work

Aero:
Full Under body Plate
Rear-Downforce

Wheels:
Something beefy will do

The Engine alone would be the MOST expensive single upgrade of the entire vehicle. Hopefully it is assembled correctly and doesn't blow up during it's first start or during tuning. A small mistake could lead you to shelling out for an ENTIRE new engine build. 1 loose bolt could blow up your $15k - $20k engine. (This includes buying a crate engine with 0 miles on it and modifying it.)

If you can't post similar times to the Z06 at this point. Then hand your car off to the guy who set the lap time or someone with similar capabilities to see if they cant set a close enough lap time.

If you are still treading behind the only suggestion I can give you is to start replacing all the panels with carbon fiber and start shedding weight. You can paint over it to retain a stock-ish look.

You can't put qualifications like STOCK GROUND CLEARANCE on a comparison between modded and stock cars.

Just like everyone else, you're counting other people doing the work for you.

I rebuild my own engines, been doing it for 25 years.

Would I in this case? probably not you can buy a balanced and blueprinted lower compression shortblock for 4K with forged internals so why would I need to.

I'm doing things differently than most people would because I bought this car specifically for what it is to test bed certain things I'm designing and prototyping..

I'm not going to get into details here.

One of the things I would do if I was going to put that much money into the car would be to take out the trans and the diff and put in a rear mounted sequential transaxle. Remove 60-70 lbs and make the weight dist a perfect 50-50.

that's 15-20K right there though.

With that done though, you would have to do much less in some other areas.

People are making 400 reliably with turbos and stock internals.

I wouldn't be going that route, but I can't talk online about some of the things I'm doing.

Internals would NOT have to be upgraded to make over 500hp though with what I'm working on.

You want to talk about it a LITTLE bit, pm me and I'll give you my number and we can discuss it a little bit.

One thing that I'm currently working on that I WILL touch on is an axial compressor based supercharger. Much more efficient than other types and shouldn't even require an intercooler because of that.

That in conjunction with the other main thing I'm working on will easily be good for over 500hp, which has been shown to put the 86 on par with a 458 Italia, so do you think a stock Z06 will beat a 458 Italia???

I don't know if I'm going to do all of these things. I have stuff in the works, but you should know about the 'plans of mice and men'.

The things that I would be doing would total less than 33K... bringing grand total for me to 53K if I were to attempt to better the Z06 with my car.

Again, though, like you said, until we have hard numbers, we won't even know what the Z06 is capable of.

I would be happy being on par with the 458 Italia though

Jaden

[n2oinferno]

40-50k in mods to beat a stock Z06. And then the Z06 owner spends a little bit of money and puts you right back where you were.

Doesn't seem worth it to me.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by n2oinferno

40-50k in mods to beat a stock Z06. And then the Z06 owner spends a little bit of money and puts you right back where you were.

Doesn't seem worth it to me.

and who is saying that you HAVE to have 40-50K in mods to compete with a Z06.. The point was if you DID put 40-50K in mods, you would likely destroy the z06...and if you can't afford that much right now, you can(for less) and spread out over time, get to the same level of performance... At least that was the only point I was trying to make.

This is the problem with that idea.

There is a point of diminishing returns where the amount of money you have to spend to get beyond a level of performance is crazily out of proportion.

You don't have to spend any where NEAR that much to put yourself really close to the level of performance of a Z06 in an 86, but to go substantially beyond that gets REALLY expensive.

And as I've already stated, you could buy a bare bones vette and put 25-30K and be better than the z06 too...

So really, it just comes down to whether you...

A) have 85-90K to spend right NOW,

B) want to have the ability to take it to the dealership and complain when something goes wrong(and we know the dealerships are ALWAYS on point with fixing issues under warranty-insert SARCASM-)

and or C) Don't care about having the pride of doing your own personal modifications to the car you drive.


I do find it funny though that the majority of people in the (can't be done) camp drive something ELSE...lol

let's see what comes next.

Jaden

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by Jaden

You can't put qualifications like STOCK GROUND CLEARANCE on a comparison between modded and stock cars.

This was in just to troll you

Just like everyone else, you're counting other people doing the work for you.

I know i can't personally do all that work by myself but i made it very clear that someone with the right qualification, and a lot of expereince, could.

I rebuild my own engines, been doing it for 25 years.

I built an engine when i was 18 and it ran to 10,500 RPMS for close to 50k miles+. The only parts I didn't install were the crank and pistons because I didn't have the experience, nor did I want to risk it. Valves, oil pump, timing chain, cams, springs, ect were all done by me.

Would I in this case? probably not you can buy a balanced and blueprinted lower compression shortblock for 4K with forged internals so why would I need to.

yeah but just because it says forged doesn't mean the product isn't still shit. I personally wouldn't buy a short block for $4,000 when the stock motor from factory costs more. This engine isn't your grandmas LS1 you can pick up for a grand.

I'm doing things differently than most people would because I bought this car specifically for what it is to test bed certain things I'm designing and prototyping..

I'm not going to get into details here.

I'm cool with that, the car is less than 3 years old. There's a lot of parts that aren't proven for this car. IE: PTuning's header is the FIRST quality header thus far I've seen. And no offence to anyone else, but all other headers look pretty shit on quality.

One of the things I would do if I was going to put that much money into the car would be to take out the trans and the diff and put in a rear mounted sequential transaxle. Remove 60-70 lbs and make the weight dist a perfect 50-50.

50-50 Isn't perfect for every car and there isn't really room to mount a transmission in the rear unless you get rid of the gas tank.

that's 15-20K right there though.

exactly, you can spend $5,000 - $10,000 on a transmission that is perfectly capable of handling that power.

With that done though, you would have to do much less in some other areas.

People are making 400 reliably with turbos and stock internals.

I wouldn't be going that route, but I can't talk online about some of the things I'm doing.

Internals would NOT have to be upgraded to make over 500hp though with what I'm working on.

300whp is a ticking time bomb in our cars and it has been proven to be so on the forced induction section

You want to talk about it a LITTLE bit, pm me and I'll give you my number and we can discuss it a little bit.

One thing that I'm currently working on that I WILL touch on is an axial compressor based supercharger. Much more efficient than other types and shouldn't even require an intercooler because of that.

I'm interested. Build thread?

That in conjunction with the other main thing I'm working on will easily be good for over 500hp, which has been shown to put the 86 on par with a 458 Italia, so do you think a stock Z06 will beat a 458 Italia???

looking at the stats, yeah it should. it's almost as light and more powerful to say the least. EDIT was thinking of another car 458 is pretty damn light at 3k lbs and 2,8xx lbs for the speciale

I don't know if I'm going to do all of these things. I have stuff in the works, but you should know about the 'plans of mice and men'.

The things that I would be doing would total less than 33K... bringing grand total for me to 53K if I were to attempt to better the Z06 with my car.

Again, though, like you said, until we have hard numbers, we won't even know what the Z06 is capable of.

I would be happy being on par with the 458 Italia though

Jaden

Yeah it really is hard to tell and the 86 that beat the 458 did it on a small track. on a larger track the 458 might be faster just because of top end and stopping power.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Jaden

You can't put qualifications like STOCK GROUND CLEARANCE on a comparison between modded and stock cars.

Well, it should have stock-ish ground clearance. If you're running the car an inch off the ground, it's clearly not as practical as a Z06...

Originally Posted by Jaden

Just like everyone else, you're counting other people doing the work for you.

I rebuild my own engines, been doing it for 25 years.

Would I in this case? probably not you can buy a balanced and blueprinted lower compression shortblock for 4K with forged internals so why would I need to.

I'd be very surprised if that 4k shortblock could handle >500hp consistently and reliably.

Originally Posted by Jaden

One of the things I would do if I was going to put that much money into the car would be to take out the trans and the diff and put in a rear mounted sequential transaxle. Remove 60-70 lbs and make the weight dist a perfect 50-50.

That's a huge amount of money and effort right there...

Originally Posted by Jaden

People are making 400 reliably with turbos and stock internals.

Are they though? How many of those people track their cars, and how many can make it through a full track day without any overheating or other problems? Just making 400hp on an occasional highway pull is very different from being able to make 400hp reliably for long periods.

Originally Posted by Jaden

Internals would NOT have to be upgraded to make over 500hp though with what I'm working on.

I wouldn't count on that...

Originally Posted by Jaden

One thing that I'm currently working on that I WILL touch on is an axial compressor based supercharger. Much more efficient than other types and shouldn't even require an intercooler because of that.

Even if you can compress the air perfectly isentropically (zero loss), you'll still get a pretty significant temperature rise. You'll still want an intercooler to combat that. A perfect isentropic compression from 1 bar to 2 bar absolute (15psig post-supercharger) will still heat 80F air to nearly 200F.

Originally Posted by Jaden

That in conjunction with the other main thing I'm working on will easily be good for over 500hp, which has been shown to put the 86 on par with a 458 Italia, so do you think a stock Z06 will beat a 458 Italia???

C7? Actually, yes, I think the new C7 Z06 has a good shot at beating a 458 around most tracks. I also don't think an 86 running 500hp could beat a 458 around most tracks, at least not without a lot of other changes (suspension, aero, brakes, much larger contact patch). There's also the question of powerband - a turbocharged 2L making 500hp tends to have a pretty useless powerband except at high RPM with the turbo spooled. This is not what you want on a racetrack.

Originally Posted by Jaden

The things that I would be doing would total less than 33K... bringing grand total for me to 53K if I were to attempt to better the Z06 with my car.

Again, though, like you said, until we have hard numbers, we won't even know what the Z06 is capable of.

I would be happy being on par with the 458 Italia though

Jaden

As I've already mentioned, I'm not convinced that your listed changes would actually put an 86 on par with a 458 or Z06 though - simply being faster in a straight line, or even for a lap or two around a racetrack is not good enough. You need speed, reliability, and at least some semblance of practicality.

[n2oinferno]

Originally Posted by Jaden

and who is saying that you HAVE to have 40-50K in mods to compete with a Z06.. The point was if you DID put 40-50K in mods, you would likely destroy the z06...and if you can't afford that much right now, you can(for less) and spread out over time, get to the same level of performance... At least that was the only point I was trying to make.

This is the problem with that idea.

There is a point of diminishing returns where the amount of money you have to spend to get beyond a level of performance is crazily out of proportion.

You don't have to spend any where NEAR that much to put yourself really close to the level of performance of a Z06 in an 86, but to go substantially beyond that gets REALLY expensive.

And as I've already stated, you could buy a bare bones vette and put 25-30K and be better than the z06 too...

So really, it just comes down to whether you...

A) have 85-90K to spend right NOW,

B) want to have the ability to take it to the dealership and complain when something goes wrong(and we know the dealerships are ALWAYS on point with fixing issues under warranty-insert SARCASM-)

and or C) Don't care about having the pride of doing your own personal modifications to the car you drive.


I do find it funny though that the majority of people in the (can't be done) camp drive something ELSE...lol

let's see what comes next.

Jaden

Me. I am saying you have to have that much mods to compete with it. To put it on paper somewhat since we're talking about a car we don't know, let's build a twin to compete against a ZR1. And then keep in mind that the Z06 with Z07 package will likely outperform a ZR1.

And if you did put 40-50k in mods in a FRS, you'd destroy the car... Figuratively of course. It would not be as streetable as a Vette, or have as many creature comforts. Don't care, just want to go to the track? That's cool I suppose. But you can be damn sure if I'm spending 100 grand on a car it's going to be something I can drive every single day without tiring of it.

So I'll add another option for you.
D) Have pipe dreams that and want to justify your purchase and say "what I have has the potential to be better than X"

Seriously, I saw the exact same shit happen over at GenCoupe when it came out. People were like PRAISE THE NEW JESUSCAR!

So tell me this. How many twins out there are running 10s or 11s all day long? And then can that same car then go to a track that isn't straight and then haul balls in the twisties as well? And then drive home with no reliability issues whatsoever. Because that's what the Corvette does.

I'm no Corvette fanboy. It's just a damn good car that performs well above its price range.

And the comment about people driving other cars. I bought the Abarth because it was 95% of the fun of a FRS for 75% of the cost.
Oh shit and I can make it faster and better than a stock FRS for the same money as a FRS too!

[Jaden]

I already said I'm not going to discuss it online, too much risk..

I will say that it will add 60-90% of hp adding NO additional fuel while reducing strain on the internals of the engine...

Jaden

That should give an idea of WHY I won't discuss what it is.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by n2oinferno

Me. I am saying you have to have that much mods to compete with it. To put it on paper somewhat since we're talking about a car we don't know, let's build a twin to compete against a ZR1. And then keep in mind that the Z06 with Z07 package will likely outperform a ZR1.

And if you did put 40-50k in mods in a FRS, you'd destroy the car... Figuratively of course. It would not be as streetable as a Vette, or have as many creature comforts. Don't care, just want to go to the track? That's cool I suppose. But you can be damn sure if I'm spending 100 grand on a car it's going to be something I can drive every single day without tiring of it.

So I'll add another option for you.
D) Have pipe dreams that and want to justify your purchase and say "what I have has the potential to be better than X"

Seriously, I saw the exact same shit happen over at GenCoupe when it came out. People were like PRAISE THE NEW JESUSCAR!

So tell me this. How many twins out there are running 10s or 11s all day long? And then can that same car then go to a track that isn't straight and then haul balls in the twisties as well? And then drive home with no reliability issues whatsoever. Because that's what the Corvette does.

I'm no Corvette fanboy. It's just a damn good car that performs well above its price range.

And the comment about people driving other cars. I bought the Abarth because it was 95% of the fun of a FRS for 75% of the cost.
Oh shit and I can make it faster and better than a stock FRS for the same money as a FRS too!

And I will NEVER claim that you couldn't... I guess that's the difference.

Jaden

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Jaden

I already said I'm not going to discuss it online, too much risk..

I will say that it will add 60-90% of hp adding NO additional fuel while reducing strain on the internals of the engine...

Jaden

That should give an idea of WHY I won't discuss what it is.

Sure, that gives me a perfect idea. Because it isn't possible. You can't add 60-90% hp with no additional fuel and no additional stress on an engine.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by chrisl

Sure, that gives me a perfect idea. Because it isn't possible. You can't add 60-90% hp with no additional fuel and no additional stress on an engine.

Ok... Whatever you say..You obviously know everything.. so I'll just bow out and stay out of these idiotic twin bashing threads.



Jaden

p.s. I couldn't actually care less. I got the twin because of the room in the engine compartment for testing my prototypes and because it's a light weight RWD platform. It does get funny watching all the twin bashers though and seeing what they have listed that they're driving... almost invariably something OTHER than a twin...

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Ok... Whatever you say..You obviously know everything.. so I'll just bow out and stay out of these idiotic twin bashing threads.

I don't need to know everything to know that if you could improve the engine efficiency by a factor of 1.5-2 (which is what you'd have to do to get more power without more fuel), manufacturers would already be doing it.

Originally Posted by Jaden

p.s. I couldn't actually care less. I got the twin because of the room in the engine compartment for testing my prototypes and because it's a light weight RWD platform. It does get funny watching all the twin bashers though and seeing what they have listed that they're driving... almost invariably something OTHER than a twin...

I don't think I have been bashing the twins here. Saying that they aren't a Z06 is hardly bashing - it's merely a statement of truth. The twins are fantastic cars, and I love the way they drive. Trying to make them as fast as a Z06 would kind of ruin the whole point of the car, to be honest.

[totopo]

Originally Posted by Jaden

That in conjunction with the other main thing I'm working on will easily be good for over 500hp, which has been shown to put the 86 on par with a 458 Italia, so do you think a stock Z06 will beat a 458 Italia???
Jaden

Seeing how the old z06 already beats the 458 italia, I somehow doubt the new one will be slower....

Nordschleife, Germany (20600 m)
12. Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 7:19.63 169 '08 647 / 1530 Jim Mero
13. Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Z07 Package 7:22.68 168 '11 512 / 1394 Jim Mero
28. Ferrari 458 Italia 7:28.00 166 '09 570 / 1485

Hockenheim Short, Germany (2604 m)
8. Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 1:08.30 137 '08 647 / 1530
13. Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Z07 Package 1:08.70 136 '11 512 / 1394
30. Ferrari 458 Italia 1:09.70 134 '09 570 / 1485

Laguna Seca, USA (3602 m)
2. Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 1:33.70 138 '08 647 / 1530 Randy Pobst
5. Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Z07 Package 1:34.43 137 '11 512 / 1394
13. Ferrari 458 Italia 1:36.22 135 '09 570 / 1485 Randy Pobst

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

The Z06 is just like Godzilla. It's a lot of things that are engineered into the car from factory that is just 10x better than modding a cheaper car. Reliability is THE biggest factor here. I can't stress this enough.

Yup. I'm reminded of one of those shows (I think it was Fifth Gear) where they had a stock GT-R and a modded Evo (may have been a "stock" Evo X FQ-400 or something else with similar power), and there was still a big gap in their performance... and the Evo is no slouch, plus it already has a turbocharged motor anyway along with a lot of the goodies needed for performance. So all this talk is crazy.