Got a track related question? I'll try to answer.

[SirBrass]

This is the first time I've heard about HANS being recommended for use outside of dedicated racecar builds.

On phone I am. Therefore, if mistakes I make, Frank Oz blame you should.

[akuhei]

Originally Posted by wparsons

I disagree, especially for inexperienced drivers. The primacys make it MUCH easier for a novice to feel out the handling of the car at lower speeds. They're predictable, and howl to let you know when you're pushing too hard for their liking. Going straight to sticky tires will make it much harder to teach someone how to balance the car with their inputs.

I agree, if it is the primacys we are talking about. But i got the feel they were talking about the all season tires that came on some of the cars up north (bridgestones i think), which could be a different case. But the primacys have a lot more grip than many give them credit for, and certainly let you know long before they let go.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by SirBrass

This is the first time I've heard about HANS being recommended for use outside of dedicated racecar builds.

On phone I am. Therefore, if mistakes I make, Frank Oz blame you should.

A head and neck restraint should be used with ANY 4/5/6 point harness, period. Not doing so is extremely dangerous.

[Tainen]

Originally Posted by wparsons

I disagree, especially for inexperienced drivers. The primacys make it MUCH easier for a novice to feel out the handling of the car at lower speeds. They're predictable, and howl to let you know when you're pushing too hard for their liking. Going straight to sticky tires will make it much harder to teach someone how to balance the car with their inputs.

My instructor (20 year racing veteran, ITE and other classes) was very clear with me on this- he wanted me to go buy as many sets of these tires(stockers) as I could, because of how progressive and easy to learn on they are. I'm throwing my plan for DZIIs out the window for now, and I'll do a more intermediate upgrade instead, aimed at lower cost and easy learning curve. He told me until I start cording and chunking the street type compound of that tire, I shouldn't move up to the high end street rubber, unless I want to slow down my learning.


It was incredible being able to feel how the slight changes in acceleration completely hamstrung the tire's ability to put down enough traction for turn in on subsequent turns with this tire. This, and other scenarios, made it very clear when I was asking too much of the tires because I was trying to do two things at the same time- turning, weight transferring from side to side or front to back, accelerating, or decelerating. Even subtle changes, not just big ones. Once I have those things down, transitioning to a faster tire will make me much, much faster.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Tainen

My instructor (20 year racing veteran, ITE and other classes) was very clear with me on this- he wanted me to go buy as many sets of these tires(stockers) as I could, because of how progressive and easy to learn on they are. I'm throwing my plan for DZIIs out the window for now, and I'll do a more intermediate upgrade instead, aimed at lower cost and easy learning curve. He told me until I start cording and chunking the street type compound of that tire, I shouldn't move up to the high end street rubber, unless I want to slow down my learning.

I've seen complete beginners running on R-comps. Everything looks great at first bc there's so much grip, but once they lose it and have no idea how to recover, it's not pretty.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by Tainen

It was incredible being able to feel how the slight changes in acceleration completely hamstrung the tire's ability to put down enough traction for turn in on subsequent turns with this tire. This, and other scenarios, made it very clear when I was asking too much of the tires because I was trying to do two things at the same time- turning, weight transferring from side to side or front to back, accelerating, or decelerating. Even subtle changes, not just big ones.

If you haven't already tried it, you might like autocross, which will teach you these same car control skills. It's a useful adjunct to tracking your car when it comes to learning car control, principally because it's done at slower speeds - that isn't only safer, you learn faster.

[Tainen]

Originally Posted by dradernh

If you haven't already tried it, you might like autocross, which will teach you these same car control skills. It's a useful adjunct to tracking your car when it comes to learning car control, principally because it's done at slower speeds - that isn't only safer, you learn faster.

After having done several autocross "school" days, I guess my experience leads me to a different conclusion. After the whole training day, I had maybe... 8 or 9 minutes seat time. Which is above average for an autocross day. With the HPDE, I had 90 minutes seat time. And since the turns and maneuvers take longer to develop, I was able to take time to understand them a bit more- in autocross, I'm so busy trying to slam the wheel back and forth to make those cone gates that I have less time to really internalize my experience and analyze it. Although still fun as hell.

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by dradernh

If you haven't already tried it, you might like autocross, which will teach you these same car control skills. It's a useful adjunct to tracking your car when it comes to learning car control, principally because it's done at slower speeds - that isn't only safer, you learn faster.

In my experience, autocross doesn't do as well with initially teaching you major concepts. The problem is that things come too fast and the car doesn't tend to get to settle into a steady state. Because of this it is really hard to grasp at those initial threads of information.

Now, doing autocross once you are an intermediate track driver is a much different cup of tea. By the time you are at an intermediate level you tend to have alot more sense for what the car is doing underneath you. Essentially your bandwidth for absorbing information is higher because you have something to reference against it. At that point the autocross becomes a great place to overdrive the car and experience the failure modes you need to avoid on the track.

Frankly it is unfortunate that it is this way. The speeds of an autocross really are much safer for a beginner. I would imagine that some sort of an extreme skid pad exercise with longer arcing turns would help this alot, but that wouldn't be as much fun for the experienced people

[nyfries]

I just had my first autox event yesterday and I'm hooked. I want to do more HPDE event. However cost is a major concern. At around $50 a pop autox is very affordable for me. However I feel like it's not the best learning environment for a noob. Granted I had so much fun. Should I continue to do autox event or should I save up and do few track days to really learn driving techniques before going back to autox?

[ayau]

Originally Posted by nyfries

I just had my first autox event yesterday and I'm hooked. I want to do more HPDE event. However cost is a major concern. At around $50 a pop autox is very affordable for me. However I feel like it's not the best learning environment for a noob. Granted I had so much fun. Should I continue to do autox event or should I save up and do few track days to really learn driving techniques before going back to autox?

I think it'll depend on your goal. Track events are cheaper when you consider driving time per dollar spent. However, if you don't have an instructor to guide you, then you may not really learn anything either. I think the best way to do as many events as possible with an instructor riding next to you. Have a bunch of different instructors as some may be better than others.

This isn't exactly a cheap hobby, and I think it's important to have realistic goals.

[nyfries]

Originally Posted by ayau

I think it'll depend on your goal. Track events are cheaper when you consider driving time per dollar spent. However, if you don't have an instructor to guide you, then you may not really learn anything either. I think the best way to do as many events as possible with an instructor riding next to you. Have a bunch of different instructors as some may be better than others.

This isn't exactly a cheap hobby, and I think it's important to have realistic goals.

I can see myself having a great time competing in autocrossing. Track day would be something that is fun and educational but won't be building my car for that. My goal for my car and myself is to be semi competitive in the autox c street class( that was what i was put in).

But with 6 under a min ran per day on autox it's hard to try and apply technique and to analyze my driving for improvement. That where I see track day being an advantage?

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by ddeflyer

In my experience, autocross doesn't do as well with initially teaching you major concepts. The problem is that things come too fast and the car doesn't tend to get to settle into a steady state. Because of this it is really hard to grasp at those initial threads of information.

Trust me, I hear what you're saying. I think that with any of this four-wheeled activity, be it autocross, road course driving, karting, rally, etc., different drivers pick it up at different rates, and for different reasons. My best autocrossing came as a result of going to an Evo School event - having national champions as instructors has a way of lifting your game! lol

This is what Randy Pobst has to say about what autocross did for his career: http://www.randypobst.com/index.cfm?...y&form_years=1

[nyfries]

$5 event!!!!

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by nyfries

$5 event!!!!

That's why they call them the good old days!