BRZ vs Cayman/Corvette

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Mr.ac

Welcome. First off all three cars are great. The handel well and preform great. Brz would be on the bottom of the list overall. Still fun.

You sound like you did your homework already, so I'll just go from what I seen and talking to people that take them to track days/ help them learn.

Porsche, they are great till they brake. Then you really feel the Porsche price tag for repairs. That's all the complaints I hear from the Cayman. If buying used be on the look out for the IMS baring. Many have been recalled and fixed, but some are unknown.

Please do your homework before posting things that aren't accurate. There has never been a recall for Porsche Caymans because of anything IMS related. There was a class action lawsuit (which Porsche lost) for the IMS on 986 Boxsters and 996 911s. The Cayman was not included in that lawsuit because it's IMS bearing is a more robust design with a considerably lower rate of failure. Overall the 987 Cayman is a very reliable car. However yes as a car ages there are things that need to be replaced, and those items are more expensive on a Porsche than most cars.

I agree that the interior, as noted by someone else, of a Cayman 987 isn't that great. The materials are sturdy and interior is well put together, but they're not luxurious. Still, they're CONSIDERABLY better than what you'll find inside of a C6 Corvette.

The prospective buyer has stated that he does a lot of his own vehicle maintenance. Knowing that, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend owning a Cayman S. A lot of people are put off by the unique drivetrain packaging but most items on a 987 aren't super difficult to service. It is true that you cannot access the engine via a traditional hood, however you can access the engine from underneath, as well as from above and in front (via 2 removable panels).

Things to know before potentially purchasing a Cayman S:
-If the IMS bearing hasn't failed on a 987 yet, then it honestly probably will not ever fail. However, it is important to note that unlike a 986 or 996, you cannot retrofit a "fix"/upgraded bearing without completely removing the engine and splitting the crankcase.
-brake rotors are (technically) designed to be replaced when the pads wear out. Not really required, but typical lifespan of rotors are around 60k miles (front, longer for rears). Figure around $300/pair.
-the water pump needs to be replaced every 50k miles to prevent potential problems related to it's eventual failure. This is a DIY for anyone of moderate skill.
-Spark plugs need to be replaced every 50k (this isn't due to plug lifespan issues but rather to ensure no problems with plug threads getting stuck/frozen - you cannot use anti-seize on these engines)
-clutch replacement is very expensive if performed by a shop; seems like costs I've seen online have varied between $2500 and $4000. Average clutch life varies, but sometimes they wear out as early as 60k (obviously driver dependent)
-it's not uncommon for the door window regulators to fail prematurely. It happened to me but I fixed it myself (having never worked on a window mechanism previously)
-Having work done at the dealership is EXPENSIVE, however if you can perform most maintenance yourself there are a few dealerships with great online parts warehouses, where you can buy OEM parts at wholesale pricing (Suncoast, Sonnen in particular).
-If you join the Porsche Club of America (a no brainer at ~ $50/year, including an excellent magazine subscription) you have access to the Cayman Register, an excellent resource for technical data, advice and semi-factory help.

I've driven a friend's C6 Z51 Vette and it just wasn't for me. I loved the engine, but that was about it. The seating position was horrible, and the outward view atrocious (especially out the back which surprised me given how large the rear hatch glass is). I certainly wouldn't make a decision without driving all three cars but for me the Porsche was the way to go.

Good luck with your car buying process

[prj3ctm4yh3m]

Originally Posted by FRStock

Why did you think PDK was garbage? Do you mean you just didn't enjoy it as much as manual? It's difficult to argue the PDK is garbage when it's the best dual clutch out there.

The "paddles" on the base steering is stupid, you really have to step up to the sport steering wheel to get the nice paddles.

to second question, this 2011 had the sport wheel. it still had the thrustmaster rocker switches. no paddles. in 2011.

and i get that the car came out in 2006. but a MK6 GTI literally has superior seats and steering wheel. thats a Japanese-esque mistake on VAG's part if i ever saw one.

to the first question, a little harsh i guess. it DID hold a gear pretty good around a corner one time. its good for what it is, but its not an automated manual. not a sequential gearbox.

hitting buttons in D mode doesn't override D like in a GTI. there was no "sport" setting for the tranny logic. (non spasm car, maybe spasm has it??)

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by prj3ctm4yh3m

to second question, this 2011 had the sport wheel. it still had the thrustmaster rocker switches. no paddles. in 2011.

and i get that the car came out in 2006. but a MK6 GTI literally has superior seats and steering wheel. thats a Japanese-esque mistake on VAG's part if i ever saw one.

to the first question, a little harsh i guess. it DID hold a gear pretty good around a corner one time. its good for what it is, but its not an automated manual. not a sequential gearbox.

hitting buttons in D mode doesn't override D like in a GTI. there was no "sport" setting for the tranny logic. (non spasm car, maybe spasm has it??)

Apparently you're not familiar with how Porsche price gouges people? lol. Proper gear shifter paddles were/are available - but they cost extra. Likewise, better seats were/are available - they also cost extra. And yes there's a cost extra steering wheel also available.

And FWIW the standard seats in my Cayman are fine. Yes I preferred the seats of my BRZ but these seats work well enough on road courses.

Project Mayhem, it sounds like you drove a non-Sport Chrono equipped car. With Sport Chrono comes Sport Plus mode, as well as launch control. A 2011 Cayman S without SC won't have Sport Plus mode, but I thought it would have Sport mode (could be wrong about that). Either way, again it's all about the OPTIONS.

And for someone searching for a Cayman S on the used market, most cars are fairly loaded down with options unless special ordered (most dealerships order cars with $10-15k worth of options). That's an important point to bring up actually. If you are looking at a used Cayman S (or any other Porsche) you can look up the VIN on a Porsche database to find out what options the car came with (assuming the seller doesn't have the Mulrooney sticker anymore). Likewise, sometimes the cars come with the option codes listed on a sticker on the underside of the trunk. Again, you can determine how to interpret the option codes online. While Porsches are sold as a wide variety of models (base, S, GTS, etc) you can also order every available option a la carte (something I wish Japanese manufacturers would do).

[prj3ctm4yh3m]

Thanks for the input. Was looking at base cars actually.
Price gouging yes, porsche is the apple of the autoworld IMHO. re options, ive been using vincoderz. I keep seeing DIFF LOCK ($980). and im reminded that you have to pay extra for optimal sportscar spec "sport" wheel "sport" seats yada. Turns me off in a big way, even going used.

Im sure the cars are telepathic, and i will sorely miss not having hydraulic power steering, but am thinking i will go BRZ for a few years until i just absolutely have to have a porsche (and 991 GTSs get cheaper lol!!!)

[GTHachiRoku]

I imagine these three come up often in comparisons. However, they are very different cars. As most have suggested, try to drive them back to back and choose which one is more fun to you. As much as I wanted to go with a used Cayman S, I need a back seat in a pinch.

The BRZ makes a great daily driver in stock form. You'll also see good gas mileage. Maintenance is low and prices for parts are cheap. Heck, you can get an entire engine/mission from a low mile wrecker for cheaper than you may pay to get repairs done on the Porsche.

[Overdrive]

Originally Posted by Norcalkid

....[Porsche] maintenance is SCARY....

Speaking from experience, no, it isn't, when you get in there and do as much of it as you're capable of yourself. There is a whole community out there of people who work on these cars themselves. But if you're going to be paying a dealer or a high-priced independent specialist (hint: find a reasonable one for those jobs that are beyond your grasp... trust me, they're out there) then yes, maintenance is a scary thing. You do, however, have to accept that, whatever the sports car, you have to pay to play.

Drive a Cayman, you'll love it. I have a soon-to-be 20 year old Boxster that is basically spec-for-spec a Twin with two extra cylinders, another half-litre of engine that does nothing more for it than make gorgeous sounds, same power, a lil bit more torque, and said engine placed behind your head instead of by your feet. Up until getting my Twin (and the jury is still out until I can do comparison drives in the nicer weather) best handling car I've ever had or piloted. Anything younger is better, more modern, has much more usable power, and makes 911 owners sweat in the right hands. Power-wise even a base first gen Cayman will put a Twin to shame. Handling I'd say I find very similar(what drew me to the 86/FR-S, besides Toyota love), with the Porsche being more stable before stepping out on you, but at the limit I think you'd find a BRZ to be more manageable. That said, spend enough time with a car and know how it behaves and that really is a non-issue. And if you're talking mostly commuting with some fun road driving here and there, you're not likely to really push either car into that territory without serious intent. For that, find yourself some autocross and track days to do (easy to find if you buy a Porsche and join the local PCA).

I can't say which you'd find to be a better daily driving experience between the two because that's really up to you and which compromises from the respective cars you're willing to accept. The Porsche is actually likely to have more storage space in-cabin (and better thought out cup holders) than the BRZ, but you get 2 trunks with a surprisingly usable amount of space in them to compare to the BRZ's surprisingly usable lone trunk, especially when the rear seats are dropped. Creature comfort-wise, there's really no comparison, but again, that's based on your want/need for such things. If all you want is a seat, driving controls, and a great handling setup, they've both got it in spades. One is just more upscale than the other. My late-90s car is actually a little less equipped than the FR-S (zero cup holders, no glove compartment, just a literal glove box in the center tunnel, some small and narrow storage pockets in the doors that can't hold much, one cigarette-lighter-cum-power-outlet, but in a better place than the main one in the FR-S, and a big but not tall storage pouch behind the head that also stores the wind deflector) but I didn't buy it to be drinking stuff in it and storing a bunch of crap in it, so that doesn't really matter to me. As the years wear on and the people with the money complain, these things make their way into what you'd be shopping for today for a Porsche.

I can't talk Corvette other than to say driving a C6 convertible was pretty great and actually very domesticated when you wanted it to be, and neither of the other cars can compare in any parameter, especially dollar-for-dollar. The interior may be an afterthought, but if that's not a big deal to you, I have to hand heavy consideration to the Corvette. You picked 2 that I'm biased in favor of that I can talk about all day, but your 3rd, while the poster child for mid-life crisis-mobile, is nothing to turn your nose at.

Get some seat time in all 3, hopefully more than just a dealer loop (find some friends who'll let you drive theirs) and go with what stirs you the right way. But don't be scared of the "Porsche maintenance" stigma that comes mostly out of people who don't own one. Parts cost money. Shop smart and DIY and you won't feel it as bad as you would with dealer pricing and $150/hr labor rates.

[Yardjass]

Originally Posted by new2subaru

Why? What is your reasoning for this?

My reasoning is I like to crack jokes every now and then.

[Norcalkid]

Originally Posted by Overdrive

Speaking from experience, no, it isn't, when you get in there and do as much of it as you're capable of yourself. There is a whole community out there of people who work on these cars themselves. But if you're going to be paying a dealer or a high-priced independent specialist (hint: find a reasonable one for those jobs that are beyond your grasp... trust me, they're out there) then yes, maintenance is a scary thing. You do, however, have to accept that, whatever the sports car, you have to pay to play.

Drive a Cayman, you'll love it. I have a soon-to-be 20 year old Boxster that is basically spec-for-spec a Twin with two extra cylinders, another half-litre of engine that does nothing more for it than make gorgeous sounds, same power, a lil bit more torque, and said engine placed behind your head instead of by your feet. Up until getting my Twin (and the jury is still out until I can do comparison drives in the nicer weather) best handling car I've ever had or piloted. Anything younger is better, more modern, has much more usable power, and makes 911 owners sweat in the right hands. Power-wise even a base first gen Cayman will put a Twin to shame. Handling I'd say I find very similar(what drew me to the 86/FR-S, besides Toyota love), with the Porsche being more stable before stepping out on you, but at the limit I think you'd find a BRZ to be more manageable. That said, spend enough time with a car and know how it behaves and that really is a non-issue. And if you're talking mostly commuting with some fun road driving here and there, you're not likely to really push either car into that territory without serious intent. For that, find yourself some autocross and track days to do (easy to find if you buy a Porsche and join the local PCA).

I can't say which you'd find to be a better daily driving experience between the two because that's really up to you and which compromises from the respective cars you're willing to accept. The Porsche is actually likely to have more storage space in-cabin (and better thought out cup holders) than the BRZ, but you get 2 trunks with a surprisingly usable amount of space in them to compare to the BRZ's surprisingly usable lone trunk, especially when the rear seats are dropped. Creature comfort-wise, there's really no comparison, but again, that's based on your want/need for such things. If all you want is a seat, driving controls, and a great handling setup, they've both got it in spades. One is just more upscale than the other. My late-90s car is actually a little less equipped than the FR-S (zero cup holders, no glove compartment, just a literal glove box in the center tunnel, some small and narrow storage pockets in the doors that can't hold much, one cigarette-lighter-cum-power-outlet, but in a better place than the main one in the FR-S, and a big but not tall storage pouch behind the head that also stores the wind deflector) but I didn't buy it to be drinking stuff in it and storing a bunch of crap in it, so that doesn't really matter to me. As the years wear on and the people with the money complain, these things make their way into what you'd be shopping for today for a Porsche.

I can't talk Corvette other than to say driving a C6 convertible was pretty great and actually very domesticated when you wanted it to be, and neither of the other cars can compare in any parameter, especially dollar-for-dollar. The interior may be an afterthought, but if that's not a big deal to you, I have to hand heavy consideration to the Corvette. You picked 2 that I'm biased in favor of that I can talk about all day, but your 3rd, while the poster child for mid-life crisis-mobile, is nothing to turn your nose at.

Get some seat time in all 3, hopefully more than just a dealer loop (find some friends who'll let you drive theirs) and go with what stirs you the right way. But don't be scared of the "Porsche maintenance" stigma that comes mostly out of people who don't own one. Parts cost money. Shop smart and DIY and you won't feel it as bad as you would with dealer pricing and $150/hr labor rates.

THANKS, a buddy at work is guna let me drive his Corvette this week. Funny thing is i didn't even ask to drive it. Was asking him questions and he offered and was excited about letting me try it. Can't wait. Don't know anyone W a Cayman.

[Overdrive]

Originally Posted by Norcalkid

THANKS, a buddy at work is guna let me drive his Corvette this week. Funny thing is i didn't even ask to drive it. Was asking him questions and he offered and was excited about letting me try it. Can't wait. Don't know anyone W a Cayman.

See if you can find a dealer that doesn't mind you driving the car the way it was meant to be driven. Don't abuse it obviously, but get it on the highway, hit some imperfect city streets, see if you can find opportunities to feel some lateral Gs. It's a wonderful car, trust me.

And sorry for writing such a novel before, lol, I didn't realize I'd gone on such a writing epic until I saw it quoted.

[prj3ctm4yh3m]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Apparently you're not familiar with how Porsche price gouges people? lol. Proper gear shifter paddles were/are available - but they cost extra. Likewise, better seats were/are available - they also cost extra. And yes there's a cost extra steering wheel also available.

And FWIW the standard seats in my Cayman are fine. Yes I preferred the seats of my BRZ but these seats work well enough on road courses.

Project Mayhem, it sounds like you drove a non-Sport Chrono equipped car. With Sport Chrono comes Sport Plus mode, as well as launch control. A 2011 Cayman S without SC won't have Sport Plus mode, but I thought it would have Sport mode (could be wrong about that). Either way, again it's all about the OPTIONS.

cayman test drive #2. 987.2 2.9L manual. 19k miles on it. sport wheel and seats. cherry car minus the glazed rotors.

clutch is 370z-esque with a long,heavy throw and a late engagement.
shifter is extremely stiff, and each gear engagement feels different; mostly on the glacial side with fourth gear being particularly bad. i can say it feels alot like the 2003 M Roadster i have some miles behind. theres no such thing as a 4-3-2 snick-snick-snick real quick like in a FiSt or S2000. not happening. i suppose this is why porsche specs such long gears; like a corvette, they want you to stay in one for awhile. now i know why 70% of orders are PDK; despite the regrettable paddles-are-extra stock steering wheel.

HEY i suppose i could spend $700 in parts and labor on aftermarket shift cables and it might help a tad, but why would i do that when i can buy a Japanese car where things like shift cables and water pumps are lifetime items?

O, another thing, for being the World's Greatest Drivers Car(tm), they sure do place the brake pedal in a mighty awkward position. never had to contort myself so bad to perform a heel-and-toe downshift. ever. wayy too high. O BUT you can spend $400 and get a GT3 master cylinder installed. only the GT3 needs a low, firm brake pedal. because racecar.

sport seats have wonderful leather, but the shoulders are wayy too narrow (and i wear a 42 at most...); which makes them moot.

engine is nice. very nice.

dampers are firm yet supple; really nice curve on them (non-PASM).

steering is communicative but has more off-center play than the hydro steering in a $24k RSX Type-S (which has zero play; even with stock bushings)


sorry but, this car is really supposed to be God's gift to Driverdom???

[Agent 86]

I glad to hear that the diagnosis was incorrect.

I just traded my 2014 BRZ for a 2017 Cayman S.

IMO, the BRZ is a great car to own and a pleasure to drive. I will remember it as my favorite car prior to buying the Cayman. It's not really fast, but because of the driving position (very low to the ground), and handling it feels like a fast car. I found it to be enjoyable when driving aggressively or just cruising down the highway. I did not have any problems with my BRZ, although, I found the cricket sound (fuel pump) to be somewhat embarrassing as it could be quiet loud at times. Fuel consumption is decent and i found it easy to customize.

As other's have said, test drive then decide.

[WolfpackS2k]

^^We get it, you're biased against this car for some reason. It's not the car's fault that there's something amiss with the manual transmission. You're not driving new cars, which unfortunately means that some things change via abuse and wear.

[ajh88]

I drove my friend's stock manual 09 Cayman S through some canyons recently and had a few takeaways.

It's a good all-around sports car and I now understand the appeal. I wouldn't buy one though. The power, handling, sound, presentation, shift action, etc., all get a solid B+. But I couldn't find anything that wow'd me for the price. For the other options in the price range you can get a number of cars with a wow factor in any of the qualities of a sports car. Be it a lotus, a z06, a supra, an nsx, etc; these are all options that for 40k would be worth more than the price of admission for a Cayman S. And for half as much, I thought my stock FR-S felt more energetic and exciting. The Cayman S has that typical German solidity which comparatively feels damp and numb. The FR-S steering is better than the Cayman's.

A very well apportioned car but not enough for me.

[FX86]

i drove a cayman once ....in forza...it was good

the corvertte in gran turismo handled like a loose pig