BRZ vs S2000 vs Cayman S (my take)

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

It's an S2000 with a much broader torque curve, and struts

Haha I guess that's one way of looking at it I always figured one day if I needed actual rear seats for kids, I'd trade in my FR-S for an E36 M3 sedan/track car, but the reliability does worry me a bit, especially with how old the E36's are getting. Still love that car though.

[Pat]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I feel like you would love the E36 M3. It's got great handling, is fairly lightweight and simple by today's standards, but has one of the smoothest engines out there. Early on when I started doing track days, some of my instructors had E36 M3's and they were always fun for ride-alongs.

You're right. I considered one of those for a long time. There is a LOT I love about that car. But there's not much headroom in them. My head touches the ceiling. Add a helmet to the equation and it's a no-go. I could bolt a race seat to the floor to make it work, but ehhh...
One of my pet peeves about that car is the steering wheel is offset from the driving position. So odd.
One of the race cars I've driven is my friend's E36 built to GTS3 specs. Tons of fun, but honestly, our cars have significantly more potential than that car.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Pat

You're right. I considered one of those for a long time. There is a LOT I love about that car. But there's not much headroom in them. My head touches the ceiling. Add a helmet to the equation and it's a no-go. I could bolt a race seat to the floor to make it work, but ehhh...
One of my pet peeves about that car is the steering wheel is offset from the driving position. So odd.
One of the race cars I've driven is my friend's E36 built to GTS3 specs. Tons of fun, but honestly, our cars have significantly more potential than that car.

Interesting I never noticed about the offset steering wheel on the E36 M3! That's something that would bother me too, especially once I realized it lol.

Just thought of another RWD car in this weight/size/handling class with a silky smooth engine: RX-8. The renesis rotary is awful for fuel economy and reliability, but is unbelievably smooth at 8000+ RPM.

[EAGLE5]

My worry with older cars is their crash ratings. In a crash, given a choice between an e36 M3 and a new Fiesta, I'd take the Fiesta. NCAP wasn't founded until near the end of the E36's life. If the car is 100% track prepped, with a full cage, then it wouldn't matter.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBDyeWofcLY"]Fifth Gear - Renault Modus v Volvo 940 Crash Test - YouTube[/ame]

[Pat]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Interesting I never noticed about the offset steering wheel on the E36 M3! That's something that would bother me too, especially once I realized it lol.

Just thought of another RWD car in this weight/size/handling class with a silky smooth engine: RX-8. The renesis rotary is awful for fuel economy and reliability, but is unbelievably smooth at 8000+ RPM.

Yep...considered that one, too. Good option. I think I prefer the FA20 overall just by a little bit. For me the better torque may be worth the smoothness difference.

[Pat]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

My worry with older cars is their crash ratings. In a crash, given a choice between an e36 M3 and a new Fiesta, I'd take the Fiesta. NCAP wasn't founded until near the end of the E36's life. If the car is 100% track prepped, with a full cage, then it wouldn't matter.

Heh....I was just talking about crash worthiness in my lunch meeting 30 minutes ago. I was thinking about that specific video during the discussion.

[CSG Mike]

@Pat @DarkSunrise if that bothers you, you should check out the seating position of the 1/2 series BMWs... you don't really sit pointing "forward"...

[Pat]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

@Pat @DarkSunrise if that bothers you, you should check out the seating position of the 1/2 series BMWs... you don't really sit pointing "forward"...

Ugh...what a shame. I've ridden in a 1M around the track and didn't notice it. I'm guessing with a steering wheel in front of you it's much more noticeable. I really like the 1s and 2s, but that would probably keep me from owning one.
No problem, though. I'm quite content with my BRZ, thankyouverymuch.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

@Pat @DarkSunrise if that bothers you, you should check out the seating position of the 1/2 series BMWs... you don't really sit pointing "forward"...

Hmm I'm sensing a trend here with BMW's...

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

Entering a corner off the throttle, at speed, the front of my FR-S pushes. Feeding in throttle definitely tightens my driving line.

No. Way. On the gas => understeer, off the gas => oversteer. This is the way things work. I can see in some limited circumstances that if the rear bumpstops are encountered and rear roll stiffness abruptly increases that it *could* happen, but I still think the main reason people think "ON the gas = OVERsteer, so OFF the gas = UNDERsteer" is F&F.

Get on the gas, unload the fronts and load the rears, grip moves rearward.
Get off the gas, load the fronts and unload the rears, grip moves forward.

Of course you can get to the point of power-on oversteer, but the general NATURAL behavior of performance and handling-oriented cars is power-on understeer and power-off oversteer.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by ZDan

No. Way. On the gas => understeer, off the gas => oversteer. This is the way things work. I can see in some limited circumstances that if the rear bumpstops are encountered and rear roll stiffness abruptly increases that it *could* happen, but I still think the main reason people think "ON the gas = OVERsteer, so OFF the gas = UNDERsteer" is F&F.

Get on the gas, unload the fronts and load the rears, grip moves rearward.
Get off the gas, load the fronts and unload the rears, grip moves forward.

Of course you can get to the point of power-on oversteer, but the general NATURAL behavior of performance and handling-oriented cars is power-on understeer and power-off oversteer.

I really need to go to a track to learn to be more than an average driver because I really thought the opposite.

[DarkSunrise]

Yep @ZDan is right. When you're being smooth with your inputs, less throttle (or brakes) will tighten your line. More throttle will widen your line. But a lot more throttle will power oversteer.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Yep @ZDan is right. When you're being smooth with your inputs, less throttle (or brakes) will tighten your line. More throttle will widen your line. But a lot more throttle will power oversteer.

Originally Posted by Yoda

I really need to go to a track to learn to be more than an average driver because I really thought the opposite.

2nd here.
One of the things they teach you in track school is steering using your throttle.

It's actually pretty easy to do - find a parking lot with enough space and do the following:

1- Go in a circle and KEEP YOUR WHEEL at a CONSTANT angle
2- Now try gassing harder - see what happens
3- Now try gassing less - see what happens

<SPOILER ALERT> If you gas more, your front tires have less traction due to the weight transfer to the back and will understeer. If you gas less, you will tuck into the turn.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ZDan

No. Way. On the gas => understeer, off the gas => oversteer. This is the way things work. I can see in some limited circumstances that if the rear bumpstops are encountered and rear roll stiffness abruptly increases that it *could* happen, but I still think the main reason people think "ON the gas = OVERsteer, so OFF the gas = UNDERsteer" is F&F.

Get on the gas, unload the fronts and load the rears, grip moves rearward.
Get off the gas, load the fronts and unload the rears, grip moves forward.

Of course you can get to the point of power-on oversteer, but the general NATURAL behavior of performance and handling-oriented cars is power-on understeer and power-off oversteer.

This is very driver and car (and even setup) dependent...