01-18-2013, 09:34 AM | #323 | |
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What ever the cause it wasn't as good as the competition. Also brutal and a lot of work are not generally good attributes. I have yet to see a review (from reputable 3rd party neutral source, not gm/Corvette magazines) of any factory Corvette that has all good things to say about the handling without major negative caveats. Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2 Last edited by vtmike; 01-18-2013 at 10:07 AM. |
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01-18-2013, 10:17 AM | #324 | |
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Is this still an indictment of transverse leaf springs or have you dropped that argument and just started going after the Corvette's handling in general?
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01-18-2013, 10:33 AM | #325 |
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You guys need to go grab a beer.
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The Following User Says Thank You to Rayme For This Useful Post: | Gixxersixxerman (01-18-2013) |
01-18-2013, 10:36 AM | #326 |
form follows function
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This is why we can't have nice things.
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01-18-2013, 10:37 AM | #327 | |||||
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WTH?! I never said it was! I specifically said I didn't read the article! I said that *if* it had posted a slow lap, then you would be on that. In your post, you said it did post a "fast lap".
I never said or implied that the Corvette was "fastest". Quote:
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Anyway, you must surely admit that it is a little bit nutty to look at a comparison of cars that are ALL on coil springs, and suggest that the results imply coil superiority over leaf springs! Quote:
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The springs are the simplest, dumbest part of the suspension. They provide a restoring force pretty much linear with deflection. You can design in progressive rates with either coils or with leafs, but usually straight rates are preferred for serious performance cars. Handling feel is going to be VASTLY more affected by all the factors I mentioned in my last post than by whether the springs are coils or leafs. Quote:
It is worth noting that while giant sticky front tires provide more grip, they can hurt handling feel quite a lot. Both the Corvette and Viper suffer from this. But in the Viper's case it can't be due to leaf springs, now can it? Actually I happen to have a new Viper/C6 ZR1 comparison test in front of me (Feb Car and Driver). Similar power/weight, ZR1 2 seconds(!) faster at Laguna Seca. AND they liked the Corvette's handling feel a lot better. Is the difference down to leafs vs. coils? Of course not. Tires and dampers? More likely... |
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01-18-2013, 11:06 AM | #328 | |
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I want to like the Corvette. I want the US to have a world class performance/supercar. I don't feel the c6 is that car and many people share that opinion. I just fear the c7 is going to be the same way with what has stayed in the design. At least the interior and seats have improved. It's just disappointing when considering what Chevrolet can do with the zl1 and 1le handling in such a heavy car. Descriptors of them are well composed, well controlled, a track delight. Not brute and handful. Which happen to have coilover setups. Whether or not it is a factor. I want to see people describe the Corvette as well controlled, and well composed. Not even going to go into the ohv engine that's already been debated too. I would love to buy a Corvette that's well composed and has an engine similar to ford's 5.0 v8. Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2 |
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01-18-2013, 11:11 AM | #329 | |||||||
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Both are valid engineering approaches. And you're talking about what you "feel"? About what the engineers might (or might not) "believe in"? Funny! Quote:
It's a practical choice between two valid approaches. No one can say one is "better" as both have been proven effective. Quote:
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DOHC has inherent advantages and disadvantages. Ditto OHV. AT the moment, I don't see a clear advantage one way or the other. Other than that GM's OHV V8s are a much easier fit into smaller/lighterweight cars *IF* regulations or taxes were applied based on displacement, DOHC multivalve wins. IF they continue to be based on fuel economy, however... |
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01-18-2013, 11:20 AM | #330 |
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An aside related to the Ducati vs. RC51 conversation:
Several years back, on of the mags interviewed professional riders, having them talk about "body steering" vs. "countersteering" motorcycles. Many riders were religious devotees of the one method or the other. Colin Edwards said something like: "Body steering, countersteering, there's no one way, you just ride the shit out of it!". That's how I see these different approaches. DOHC multivalve works. larger-displacement OHV V8 works. Coil springs work. Leaf springs work. Desmodromics work. Non-desmo works. Hell, even rotaries work (sort of)! I'm for continuing development of all of them. It will be a sad world when the absolutists take over and variety is forbidden... |
01-18-2013, 11:21 AM | #331 | |
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:happy0180: Let's also not pigeonhole the C7 before anyone even drives it. Handling dynamics are a very complicated subject and must be understood as a holistic system. That starts at the chassis and ends in the tires, and literally every piece of hardware in the middle makes a marked and important impact on the overall dynamics of the handling. Just a quick story. I was at the NAIAS yesterday for Industry Preview. That means that most of the attendees are automotive industry professionals that are supposed to know what they're doing and saying. For the handful of minutes I spent studying the design of the Corvette, I heard significantly more ignorant things than intelligent things...and these are the people behind the cars we drive! GM smartly positioned a Camaro in front of the Corvette, so you can easily compare/contrast the rear ends. Only a moron would conclude their taillights are identical...and yet there were many people making such comments. The Camaro has rounded trapezoidal bezels and a half-circle illumination pattern for each of its 4 taillights. The Corvette has a polygonal bezel for each pair of taillights and a 3-sided "italic" rectangle outline for it's illumination pattern on each of the 4 taillights. The less attentive people are confusing the Camaro bezel for the Corvette illumination pattern. More attentive people understand that the Corvette's taillights are an interpretation of Chevrolet's current "rear face" design language and are not a direct facsimile of any car. Our brains like to make correlations and "connect the dots", even when it's not accurate. I can imagine Dark Helmet sitting behind GM's CEO desk and yelling "FOOLED YOU!". As for the C7 in the flesh, it looks stunning. It'll have awesome presence when rolling down the road.
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01-18-2013, 11:23 AM | #332 | |
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The only reason I mentioned lap times was to show that in one instance the fastest car won and in another a significantly slower car won, and in general lap times had nothing to do with the results. You can have a car that posts a fast lap time that is light, powerful, and has a lot of sticky tire that many people would consider lacking in the handling department. Example: Corvette, viper Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2 Last edited by vtmike; 01-18-2013 at 11:42 AM. |
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01-18-2013, 12:18 PM | #333 |
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@ZDan Don't you dare bring magical triangle, spontaneously seizing, beer kegs into this argument!
Also (serious now) I would like your opinion on what I feel may be the practical displacement limits on an OHV V8. Actually any V8 really. @Ryephile I came to a similar conclusion about industry people over Christmas. I was actually in your neck of the woods (Novi) and met two of the 3 Denso sales managers responsible for Ford. Electrical products (alternators etc...) and thermal products (AC, etc...) and was kind of disappointed with their depth of general automotive knowledge.
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01-18-2013, 12:57 PM | #334 | |
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There are a bunch of brilliant minds in the industry. It's just too bad the idiots usually have a louder voice. That goes all the way from entry level to executive. With the companies as big as they are, a lot of the amazing innovators get frequently lost in the noise. Just like most industries, management often confuses political posturing for actual productivity.
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01-18-2013, 03:42 PM | #335 |
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Have you driven one? I wasn't sure if this was answered yet, but I did skim back to see if it was asked.
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01-18-2013, 04:35 PM | #336 |
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I see a lot of subjective, "the handling isn't GOOD, it's just fast because x,y,z..., fast doesn't mean good handling..." going on here on the anti-leaf spring side, and almost no empirical evidence or engineering oriented reasons why the spring type is to blame for those issues. It could all be a combination of spring rate, bushing stiffness, steering linkage slop etc. that cause the softer feel Pobst mentions.
The bottom line is that the Corvette has a double wishbone suspension with springs providing the restoring force. Whether those springs are leafs or coils is really a non-issue as far as the chassis dynamics go. The chassis only cares how hard the springs are pushing back when a force is applied to them, how hard/soft the bushings and joints in all the components are, and how the geometry of the suspension combined with that hardness/softness in the bushings and springs combines to keep (Or not keep) the rubber planted effectively and communicating that information to the driver. Everything else is a load of verbal (written) diarrhea until some direct comparison evidence is shown with an identical suspension setup with everything about the car held identical except for the spring type. That means the only thing changing is the type of spring providing the restoring force. Until that type of comparison is made, any comment to the effect of, "the suspension design is sloppy because it has leaf springs" or "the leaf springs are holding back the suspension and responsible for the poor handling." or, "leaf springs are worse than coils" is completely meaningless and solely keyboard jockey conjecture. From a logical engineering perspective there isn't any major indicator that the springs are worse or better. So until that is proven, those saying, "It's no worse or better, it's just different" are correct. Because that's the only conclusion we have the evidence to make at this point. Cheers Nathan |
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