08-11-2014, 04:09 PM | #43 | |
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Your speculation about my experience or lack thereof is inaccurate. Yes I do understand that torque gets multiplied by the gearbox (except of course in overdrive ratios which this car has) and the diff and divided by the ratio of the tire diameter to the diameter of the crown gear (or ring gear if you prefer) but really that isn't relevant to comparing cars with similar torque output unless the design of one is radically incompetent or directed at another purpose entirely. Many cars with 150 lb ft of torque or so do not "power" oversteer. And however much fun it might be it does get tedious if you are a serious driver, which I am. You will also note that the BRZ?FRS is surprisingly slow for a car with this torque output and weight. It's cornering prowess is also not what it should be given it's specification. As far as I can tell, cutting one half inch or so out of the hard end of the rear bump stops might be the cheapest way to reduce the rear roll stiffness and get you more rear traction. I haven't been able to try this in the wet or on snow yet, apart from one interesting very wet on ramp shortly after I fitted the Bilsteins to the rear with the shorter bump stops. I had also just fitted the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 though and they were completely green (and brand new). I expect any new tire would have tended to step out in those conditions. In theory, cutting the bump stops should be equivalent to reducing the relative stiffness of the rear roll bar as compared to the front bar. Fitting a stiffer front bar should yield similar results. I have no wish to increase any of the spring rates on this car. I am old enough and wise enough to know that stiff spring rates do not improve handling when trying to drive quickly on the street. Indeed, upping the spring rates is what automotive engineers do when they don't want to spend the money to do it correctly. This thread was intended to be about how to improve the handling of these cars if you are not a teenager, or do not wish to drive like a teenager. Subaru recognized this market by making the BRZ a "more serious" driver's car. As far as I can see from all these suspension threads even the drivers who just think they're serious about clean fast driving are modifying their cars to increase front roll stiffness, biasing their modifications to increasing front roll stiffness more than the rear, fitting grippier tires to tame that tail and now, apparently, considering spending serious money fitting lsd diffs when the car already comes with a Torsen, and a tight one at that. The only reason a car like this could use a lsd is if the rear roll stiffness is too high from the factory, which it is BTW. I suggest reducing the rear roll stiffness is likely to be as effective or more so and a whole lot cheaper, especially if cutting the bump stops will do it and from my direct experience I'd say it does do it. I even bought new fresh bump stops to perform this experiment because, as you point out maybe I didn't know enough. But, it works, so it turns out I did know what I was doing after all. The Nurburgring effect has been ruining street suspensions for far too long now and it is time for a little light of reason to shine on the problems it creates. If you want a simple test for excessive rear spring rates (and inadequate rear damper rates) just see how quickly you can drive over a sleeping policeman type traffic calming bump. Better yet, find a couple of good on/off ramp with serious dips in them, often at the expansion joints on bridged sections or at the abutments in frost areas. See how fast you can go around those with too much rear spring rate. This thread is about real driving on real roads and getting maximum satisfaction out of your BRZ after the initial kid's stuff of hanging the tail out a little gets dull, which it will unless you tag a guard rail or concrete wall first. |
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08-11-2014, 04:13 PM | #44 |
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And to all those posters who feel the need to get personal, just give it up. Please.
All you demonstrate is your own immaturity. Let me assure you that I am unmoved by such nonsense. |
08-11-2014, 04:20 PM | #45 |
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Or you could just learn how to drive. I've never had this car oversteer on the street, even with significantly INCREASED rear roll stiffness.
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08-11-2014, 04:42 PM | #46 | |
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Did your rear spin? Yup, that's power oversteer. |
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08-11-2014, 04:43 PM | #47 |
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All you do is provide theory. Provide results, and we'll take you more seriously. Except, results will not match up with your theories, so we really would take you seriously.
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08-11-2014, 04:49 PM | #48 | |||||||||
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As for it's cornering prowess, you've lost your marbles. I've got video of me running right with an S2000 lap after lap. Similar tires, both cars had quality lower springs but otherwise stock. I'm down about 40hp but he barely pulled a couple feet on a long straight, and I was better under braking and in corners. Quote:
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Maybe the reason you feel it handles better is because you've lowered the amount of grip up front resulting in a car that you feel corners better, but in reality has less grip overall. Quote:
Unless you only change the rear tires, you're changing grip all around and if you run the same tires in a square setup you aren't changing the grip balance from stock. Quote:
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Are you on the throttle as the car goes over those bumps and/or dips you're talking about? Are you conscious of what is happening to weight transfer over bumps/dips, and if you're on the throttle or lifting? Quote:
I don't baby my car, but I usually drive well under the limits on the street because of how fast conditions can change. The car is still plenty of fun on the street, even well below it's limits. I've also never had the rear step out on my without it being intentional. If you're getting oversteer in a corner, it's either on purpose, or a driving mistake.
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08-11-2014, 07:43 PM | #49 |
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08-11-2014, 07:46 PM | #50 | |
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I'm reporting what I've done, that it works and how and why it works. I explain why it works because I understand the theory. My understanding of the theory matches my experience before and after the modifications I have done. I don't need or expect anyone to take me seriously. I am merely reporting what I have done and ...so on. However, there are some people who post whatever seems to pop into their heads and expect everyone to accept it, even if it clearly isn't correct. Some people even refute points I didn't make, which is an interesting phenomenon in itself. |
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08-11-2014, 08:06 PM | #51 | |
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The biggest one lately is how you claim the car needs less rear roll stiffness, but also claim they need stiffer rebound damping. Unfortunately stiffer rebound has the same effect on handling balance as more rear roll stiffness.
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08-11-2014, 08:11 PM | #52 |
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08-11-2014, 09:09 PM | #53 |
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08-11-2014, 10:02 PM | #54 |
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08-12-2014, 12:17 AM | #55 | |
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Your comment here is funny though. This thread is about making the car less neutral when being pushed yet you are trying to induce oversteer? Uhmmmm.
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08-12-2014, 12:36 AM | #56 |
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Is this cjsporl again?
Also in for driving qualifications... |
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