follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Speed By Design
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing

Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing Relating to suspension, chassis, and brakes. Sponsored by 949 Racing.


User Tag List

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-11-2014, 04:09 PM   #43
Ubersuber
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: BRZ Pearl White
Location: Cochrane, Alberta Canada
Posts: 314
Thanks: 54
Thanked 71 Times in 50 Posts
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
I have plenty of video clips where I'm using power induced oversteer to drift a FRS/BRZ, and many SoCal locals can corroborate that I do this upon request at the track.

I'm not a drifter, so I only know how to initiate drifts with weight transfers and power overs. The power over is just easier.

I'll give you a hint: you have a LOT more torque at the rear wheels that 151lb/ft. Think gearing. Your reasoning and logic are flawed; there's a pretty good chance that you, an enthusiast, are not qualified to make a better decision than entire engineering departments at Toyota and Subaru. If you did, you'd be a very, very wealthy person, and would be proving all of us wrong by example, not theory.


I'm also going to speculate that you do not have the requisite driving experience to be making these "car drives well" or "car doesn't drive well" judgements. Unless you're secretly an automotive journalist. Or the Stig. Wait, the Stig doesn't speak.... I suppose he might type? Oh that can't be right... I'm the Stig. Yes, I am the Stig. Okay BBC, you can fire me now.
I am the Stig and have the T shirt to prove it.

Your speculation about my experience or lack thereof is inaccurate.

Yes I do understand that torque gets multiplied by the gearbox (except of course in overdrive ratios which this car has) and the diff and divided by the ratio of the tire diameter to the diameter of the crown gear (or ring gear if you prefer) but really that isn't relevant to comparing cars with similar torque output unless the design of one is radically incompetent or directed at another purpose entirely.

Many cars with 150 lb ft of torque or so do not "power" oversteer. And however much fun it might be it does get tedious if you are a serious driver, which I am. You will also note that the BRZ?FRS is surprisingly slow for a car with this torque output and weight. It's cornering prowess is also not what it should be given it's specification.

As far as I can tell, cutting one half inch or so out of the hard end of the rear bump stops might be the cheapest way to reduce the rear roll stiffness and get you more rear traction. I haven't been able to try this in the wet or on snow yet, apart from one interesting very wet on ramp shortly after I fitted the Bilsteins to the rear with the shorter bump stops. I had also just fitted the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 though and they were completely green (and brand new). I expect any new tire would have tended to step out in those conditions.

In theory, cutting the bump stops should be equivalent to reducing the relative stiffness of the rear roll bar as compared to the front bar. Fitting a stiffer front bar should yield similar results. I have no wish to increase any of the spring rates on this car. I am old enough and wise enough to know that stiff spring rates do not improve handling when trying to drive quickly on the street. Indeed, upping the spring rates is what automotive engineers do when they don't want to spend the money to do it correctly.

This thread was intended to be about how to improve the handling of these cars if you are not a teenager, or do not wish to drive like a teenager. Subaru recognized this market by making the BRZ a "more serious" driver's car. As far as I can see from all these suspension threads even the drivers who just think they're serious about clean fast driving are modifying their cars to increase front roll stiffness, biasing their modifications to increasing front roll stiffness more than the rear, fitting grippier tires to tame that tail and now, apparently, considering spending serious money fitting lsd diffs when the car already comes with a Torsen, and a tight one at that. The only reason a car like this could use a lsd is if the rear roll stiffness is too high from the factory, which it is BTW. I suggest reducing the rear roll stiffness is likely to be as effective or more so and a whole lot cheaper, especially if cutting the bump stops will do it and from my direct experience I'd say it does do it. I even bought new fresh bump stops to perform this experiment because, as you point out maybe I didn't know enough. But, it works, so it turns out I did know what I was doing after all.

The Nurburgring effect has been ruining street suspensions for far too long now and it is time for a little light of reason to shine on the problems it creates.

If you want a simple test for excessive rear spring rates (and inadequate rear damper rates) just see how quickly you can drive over a sleeping policeman type traffic calming bump. Better yet, find a couple of good on/off ramp with serious dips in them, often at the expansion joints on bridged sections or at the abutments in frost areas. See how fast you can go around those with too much rear spring rate.

This thread is about real driving on real roads and getting maximum satisfaction out of your BRZ after the initial kid's stuff of hanging the tail out a little gets dull, which it will unless you tag a guard rail or concrete wall first.
Ubersuber is offline  
Old 08-11-2014, 04:13 PM   #44
Ubersuber
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: BRZ Pearl White
Location: Cochrane, Alberta Canada
Posts: 314
Thanks: 54
Thanked 71 Times in 50 Posts
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
And to all those posters who feel the need to get personal, just give it up. Please.

All you demonstrate is your own immaturity.

Let me assure you that I am unmoved by such nonsense.
Ubersuber is offline  
Old 08-11-2014, 04:20 PM   #45
Dave-ROR
Site Moderator
 
Dave-ROR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Drives: Stuff
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,317
Thanks: 955
Thanked 5,965 Times in 2,689 Posts
Mentioned: 262 Post(s)
Tagged: 8 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubersuber View Post
This thread is about real driving on real roads and getting maximum satisfaction out of your BRZ after the initial kid's stuff of hanging the tail out a little gets dull, which it will unless you tag a guard rail or concrete wall first.
Or you could just learn how to drive. I've never had this car oversteer on the street, even with significantly INCREASED rear roll stiffness.
__________________
-Dave
Track cars: 2013 Scion FRS, 1998 Acura Integra Type-R, 1993 Honda Civic Hatchback
DD: 2005 Acura TSX
Tow: 2022 F-450
Toys: 2001 Chevrolet Corvette Z06, 1993 Toyota MR2 Turbo, 1994 Toyota MR2 Turbo, 1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4
Parts: 2015 Subaru BRZ Limited, 2005 Acura TSX
Projects: 2013 Subaru BRZ Limited track car build
FS: 2004 GMC Sierra 2500 LT CCSB 8.1/Allison with 99k miles
Dave-ROR is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Dave-ROR For This Useful Post:
ftc~brz (08-15-2014), gramicci101 (08-11-2014), SkAsphalt (08-11-2014), wparsons (08-11-2014)
Old 08-11-2014, 04:42 PM   #46
CSG Mike
 
CSG Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 14,522
Thanks: 8,911
Thanked 14,166 Times in 6,828 Posts
Mentioned: 966 Post(s)
Tagged: 14 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubersuber View Post
Many cars with 150 lb ft of torque or so do not "power" oversteer. And however much fun it might be it does get tedious if you are a serious driver, which I am. You will also note that the BRZ?FRS is surprisingly slow for a car with this torque output and weight. It's cornering prowess is also not what it should be given it's specification.
Stop right there, and just go to your local mall. Turn off all electronic aids, and stop in a clear area. Put the car in 1st, crank the steering wheel left, and floor it. Not dump the clutch, but at a "normal" speed.

Did your rear spin? Yup, that's power oversteer.
CSG Mike is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to CSG Mike For This Useful Post:
wparsons (08-11-2014)
Old 08-11-2014, 04:43 PM   #47
CSG Mike
 
CSG Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 14,522
Thanks: 8,911
Thanked 14,166 Times in 6,828 Posts
Mentioned: 966 Post(s)
Tagged: 14 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubersuber View Post
And to all those posters who feel the need to get personal, just give it up. Please.

All you demonstrate is your own immaturity.

Let me assure you that I am unmoved by such nonsense.
All you do is provide theory. Provide results, and we'll take you more seriously. Except, results will not match up with your theories, so we really would take you seriously.
CSG Mike is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CSG Mike For This Useful Post:
Dipstik-sportech (08-14-2014), wparsons (08-11-2014)
Old 08-11-2014, 04:49 PM   #48
wparsons
Senior Member
 
wparsons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: 2013 Asphalt FR-S Manual
Location: Whitby, ON, Canada
Posts: 6,716
Thanks: 7,875
Thanked 3,351 Times in 2,134 Posts
Mentioned: 99 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubersuber View Post
Your speculation about my experience or lack thereof is inaccurate.
You keep alluding to all your experience, but won't talk about it at all, which sure sounds a lot like it's pure BS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubersuber View Post
Many cars with 150 lb ft of torque or so do not "power" oversteer. And however much fun it might be it does get tedious if you are a serious driver, which I am. You will also note that the BRZ?FRS is surprisingly slow for a car with this torque output and weight. It's cornering prowess is also not what it should be given it's specification.
What other light RWD cars with ~150lb/ft of torque are you comparing this to? I've only driven a Miata once, but it'll sure hang the tail easily too, with much less torque.

As for it's cornering prowess, you've lost your marbles. I've got video of me running right with an S2000 lap after lap. Similar tires, both cars had quality lower springs but otherwise stock. I'm down about 40hp but he barely pulled a couple feet on a long straight, and I was better under braking and in corners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubersuber View Post
As far as I can tell, cutting one half inch or so out of the hard end of the rear bump stops might be the cheapest way to reduce the rear roll stiffness and get you more rear traction.
Except that cutting off the hard end doesn't change the rear spring rate, it just shifts where in the compression range the rate ramps up. In anything longer than a very slight bend you're still loading into the bump stop just as hard, the only difference now is that with the cut bump stop you have less bump travel before it fully bottoms out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubersuber View Post
I am old enough and wise enough to know that stiff spring rates do not improve handling when trying to drive quickly on the street. Indeed, upping the spring rates is what automotive engineers do when they don't want to spend the money to do it correctly.
If there was any truth to that, we would have Yaris springs on these cars. Softer springs ride better, need less damping rate and are cheaper to make. Spring rate isn't always a band-aid like you claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubersuber View Post
This thread was intended to be about how to improve the handling of these cars if you are not a teenager, or do not wish to drive like a teenager. Subaru recognized this market by making the BRZ a "more serious" driver's car.
If you want to be taken seriously, provide hard data. All you've provided is your extremely biased opinion with no quantitative results at all.

Maybe the reason you feel it handles better is because you've lowered the amount of grip up front resulting in a car that you feel corners better, but in reality has less grip overall.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubersuber View Post
As far as I can see from all these suspension threads even the drivers who just think they're serious about clean fast driving are modifying their cars to increase front roll stiffness, biasing their modifications to increasing front roll stiffness more than the rear
If you look at things in context, autox setups are always more front biased because faster reactions and transitions are more important than overall grip. What's fast for autox isn't fast on a track. What I find most amusing about your claims is that on paper, the BRZ is actually too soft in the rear. That's based on calculating what the theoretical spring rates should be based on motion ratios and weight distribution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubersuber View Post
fitting grippier tires to tame that tail
Unless you only change the rear tires, you're changing grip all around and if you run the same tires in a square setup you aren't changing the grip balance from stock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubersuber View Post
is if the rear roll stiffness is too high from the factory, which it is BTW.
Based on what facts? You're arguing against people that have actually done testing and have the data to back it up, and you provide nothing but your amateur opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubersuber View Post
If you want a simple test for excessive rear spring rates (and inadequate rear damper rates) just see how quickly you can drive over a sleeping policeman type traffic calming bump. Better yet, find a couple of good on/off ramp with serious dips in them, often at the expansion joints on bridged sections or at the abutments in frost areas. See how fast you can go around those with too much rear spring rate.
Try an autocross in a bumpy parking lot, they handle that just fine. I've also run up on some rough tall curbing and you definitely feel it, but it doesn't suddenly spin out, even if it's at the limit under a lot of throttle.

Are you on the throttle as the car goes over those bumps and/or dips you're talking about? Are you conscious of what is happening to weight transfer over bumps/dips, and if you're on the throttle or lifting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubersuber View Post
This thread is about real driving on real roads and getting maximum satisfaction out of your BRZ after the initial kid's stuff of hanging the tail out a little gets dull, which it will unless you tag a guard rail or concrete wall first.
You accuse people of driving like teenagers, but then talk about pushing your car to the limits of your skill and adhesion on the street. Classy.

I don't baby my car, but I usually drive well under the limits on the street because of how fast conditions can change. The car is still plenty of fun on the street, even well below it's limits. I've also never had the rear step out on my without it being intentional. If you're getting oversteer in a corner, it's either on purpose, or a driving mistake.
__________________
Light travels faster than sound, so people may appear to be bright until you hear them speak...
flickr
wparsons is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to wparsons For This Useful Post:
Atropine (08-14-2014), CSG Mike (08-11-2014), Dipstik-sportech (08-14-2014), Marchy (08-21-2014), Mikem53 (08-13-2014), sprintertrueno86 (08-11-2014)
Old 08-11-2014, 07:43 PM   #49
Ubersuber
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: BRZ Pearl White
Location: Cochrane, Alberta Canada
Posts: 314
Thanks: 54
Thanked 71 Times in 50 Posts
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave-ROR View Post
Or you could just learn how to drive. I've never had this car oversteer on the street, even with significantly INCREASED rear roll stiffness.
Then either you're not trying to induce oversteer or you've not driven much in the wet or on ice or snow.
Ubersuber is offline  
Old 08-11-2014, 07:46 PM   #50
Ubersuber
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: BRZ Pearl White
Location: Cochrane, Alberta Canada
Posts: 314
Thanks: 54
Thanked 71 Times in 50 Posts
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
All you do is provide theory. Provide results, and we'll take you more seriously. Except, results will not match up with your theories, so we really would take you seriously.
I'm not doing any instrumented tests.

I'm reporting what I've done, that it works and how and why it works.

I explain why it works because I understand the theory. My understanding of the theory matches my experience before and after the modifications I have done.

I don't need or expect anyone to take me seriously. I am merely reporting what I have done and ...so on.

However, there are some people who post whatever seems to pop into their heads and expect everyone to accept it, even if it clearly isn't correct.

Some people even refute points I didn't make, which is an interesting phenomenon in itself.
Ubersuber is offline  
Old 08-11-2014, 08:06 PM   #51
wparsons
Senior Member
 
wparsons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: 2013 Asphalt FR-S Manual
Location: Whitby, ON, Canada
Posts: 6,716
Thanks: 7,875
Thanked 3,351 Times in 2,134 Posts
Mentioned: 99 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubersuber View Post
I explain why it works because I understand the theory. My understanding of the theory matches my experience before and after the modifications I have done.

I don't need or expect anyone to take me seriously. I am merely reporting what I have done and ...so on.
It's a good thing you don't want to be taken seriously, since you contradict yourself so often.

The biggest one lately is how you claim the car needs less rear roll stiffness, but also claim they need stiffer rebound damping. Unfortunately stiffer rebound has the same effect on handling balance as more rear roll stiffness.
__________________
Light travels faster than sound, so people may appear to be bright until you hear them speak...
flickr
wparsons is offline  
Old 08-11-2014, 08:11 PM   #52
gramicci101
Off Topic
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Drives: 2014 Subaru BRZ Limited
Location: Vegas, baby!
Posts: 4,610
Thanks: 2,369
Thanked 4,243 Times in 2,170 Posts
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
I just think it's funny that he's contradicting @Dave-ROR and @CSG Mike on car handling issues. That'll go far.
gramicci101 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to gramicci101 For This Useful Post:
wparsons (08-12-2014)
Old 08-11-2014, 09:09 PM   #53
CSG Mike
 
CSG Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 14,522
Thanks: 8,911
Thanked 14,166 Times in 6,828 Posts
Mentioned: 966 Post(s)
Tagged: 14 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubersuber View Post
I'm not doing any instrumented tests.
I'll just ask straight up. What's your driving experience and what are your qualifications to be doing this non-instrumented testing?
CSG Mike is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CSG Mike For This Useful Post:
Dipstik-sportech (08-14-2014), wparsons (08-12-2014)
Old 08-11-2014, 10:02 PM   #54
drewbot
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
 
drewbot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Drives: '13 Whiteout FR-S A/T
Location: Mississauga, ON
Posts: 1,996
Thanks: 1,985
Thanked 1,452 Times in 752 Posts
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
drewbot is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to drewbot For This Useful Post:
wparsons (08-22-2014)
Old 08-12-2014, 12:17 AM   #55
Dave-ROR
Site Moderator
 
Dave-ROR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Drives: Stuff
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,317
Thanks: 955
Thanked 5,965 Times in 2,689 Posts
Mentioned: 262 Post(s)
Tagged: 8 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubersuber View Post
Then either you're not trying to induce oversteer or you've not driven much in the wet or on ice or snow.
It rains here every day. For hours. Always on my drive home. I've driven turbo miatas on snow and ice, even unplowed roads where the lowered (which stiffer rear springs than front even) miata was the plow. Proper driving techniques have allowed my to easily avoid these situations (and of course great snow tires on the miata), not tht I haven't done some snow and rain sliding on purpose.

Your comment here is funny though. This thread is about making the car less neutral when being pushed yet you are trying to induce oversteer? Uhmmmm.
__________________
-Dave
Track cars: 2013 Scion FRS, 1998 Acura Integra Type-R, 1993 Honda Civic Hatchback
DD: 2005 Acura TSX
Tow: 2022 F-450
Toys: 2001 Chevrolet Corvette Z06, 1993 Toyota MR2 Turbo, 1994 Toyota MR2 Turbo, 1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4
Parts: 2015 Subaru BRZ Limited, 2005 Acura TSX
Projects: 2013 Subaru BRZ Limited track car build
FS: 2004 GMC Sierra 2500 LT CCSB 8.1/Allison with 99k miles
Dave-ROR is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Dave-ROR For This Useful Post:
CSG Mike (08-12-2014), Mikem53 (08-13-2014), wparsons (08-12-2014)
Old 08-12-2014, 12:36 AM   #56
jebuwh
Village Idiot
 
jebuwh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Drives: '13 FR-S Ultramarine Manual
Location: Irvine
Posts: 402
Thanks: 230
Thanked 222 Times in 111 Posts
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Is this cjsporl again?

Also in for driving qualifications...
jebuwh is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to jebuwh For This Useful Post:
ftc~brz (08-15-2014)
 
Closed Thread

Tags
225 width perf snow tires, 7thgear haz flair, i'm afraid of the snow, lawyers can't drive, magical suspension expert, my first period, überstupid

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How to do E85 correctly? Anthony Engine, Exhaust, Transmission 95 12-11-2017 04:06 PM
Perrin 3" CBE - did I install correctly? 1Cor10:23 Engine, Exhaust, Transmission 14 12-08-2014 12:29 PM
Boost gauge not reading correctly Pneub Forced Induction 11 10-30-2013 12:39 PM
Drive Away prices on Toyota Website. Make sure you are not getting Ripped Off! Aventador87 AUSTRALIA 8 06-17-2012 07:35 AM
Toyota 86 first drive review (Car Guide) a6ela Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 22 03-14-2012 12:34 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.