Brakes Upgrades

[Kodename47]

Originally Posted by dooms101

Hard to argue with that. I've been really enjoying how easy it is to squeal the tires, I've been trying to get it sideways but the VSC always kicks in. Is there a quick guide to the different sport modes? I usually use the manual mode with the sport mode on, traction off, and VSC on (I press the middle sport button and the right VSC button). Is there a more aggressive mode? I know about the "pedal dance" fully off mode but that seems too much for normal street fun.

TC fully off is holding the left TCS button for 3/5 seconds. This should be seen as no real difference to the pedal dance when on the road. VSC sport is "half way" between off and fully on.

[dooms101]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

This.

I love driving but I usually keep it pretty tame on the street. I don't want to be "that guy". I plan on going to an HPDE (hopefully at Carolina Motorsports Park on Nov 3rd) to learn a lot and see what I can do in a safer environment.

[dooms101]

Originally Posted by Kodename47

TC fully off is holding the left TCS button for 3/5 seconds. This should be seen as no real difference to the pedal dance when on the road. VSC sport is "half way" between off and fully on.

Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!

[churchx]

@dooms101: yeah, go on track with just pads & fluid changed and on stock tires. I'm guessing that after few track days when you'll familiarise with car capabilities & limits (thankfully lower due low grip stock tires = better for learning), next cheap mod to improve car would be adding some negative camber (i advise leaving stock rubber topmounts, if you mostly dailydrive. Pillowball mounts of camber plates with stock coilovers = bad experience at least on bad roads here). Get camberbolts for front & SPC LCA for rear, tune max neg camber you can get with bolts front, and 0.5 less camber in rear, 0 toe in front, 0.1 toe-in rear. About that time you might get really hooked on trackdays (it's VERY ADDICTIVE ), and probably through stock tires, so with some experience behind belt you may try grippier tires, eg. AD08 or MPSS of stock size. This is good point to stop spendings, if not, for future you may consider more track fit coilovers, maybe camber plates for more neg. camber then that of just camber bolts, wider & stickier tires, forced induction .. and yeah, BBK too. By this time you may start to feel and know what may seem lacking/limiting to YOU, and what exactly you wish to improve.

As for electronic nannies - i'd go first laps with VSC on (TRC off in simple way makes no difference, as reaching 20-30kmh it's back on again), and notice when it interrupts. Then - with TRC off (press 5sec for it to "stick"), or even better - with "Pedal dance".
But with later two options: 1) it's mostly up to you to not do stupid things and correct mistakes with pedal work and countersteering, no nannies that (though in unpleasant and too sudden way) will correct too big mistakes now and save you. Luckily on track it's often much safer to mistake then on public roads, with just sliding on wide track or grass to stop, not hitting road kerb/other cars/trees/walls.
2) more then probably you may spin-out few times. You can try to do it even intentionally (in safer spaces relative to others and with big enough area without obstacles to not hit anything when out of control) to get feel of spinning and timing to correct
3) remember about way less grip available on plate when wet, so with trc off 5s/pedal dance be way more careful during rain and in winter, entry speeds and accel should be way lower
4) remember that it's easier to lessen understeer with mass (&grip) transfer to front .. you can use slight braking & letting of gas to better turn, especially if you still have stock camber of 0, with car rather understeerish for safety. Adding gas in beginning or mid turn may make you plow front out, as it will reduce front grip.
5) i hope that HPDE instructor has tought right steering wheel hold/steering way and seating pose, will help to countersteer in much quicker fashion (the sooner it's done, the less correction angle is needed). Better leave shuffling out of track
6) don't get overconfident. Not just on track (you will get better with more seat time, but not suddenly ideal. After several track days this year i know limits of car better, i now spin out way less and can correct most of mistakes, but i'm still only at beginning of learning road), but especially on public roads after track (where i advise always leaving at least VSC on).

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

This.

Originally Posted by dooms101

I love driving but I usually keep it pretty tame on the street. I don't want to be "that guy". I plan on going to an HPDE (hopefully at Carolina Motorsports Park on Nov 3rd) to learn a lot and see what I can do in a safer environment.

My apologies. Getting emotional content across the internet is a little difficult.
I wasn't having a go at you or implying you were a hoon.
The point I was trying to make was as Stugray said. That is, one track day is all it takes to make you realise you/I have a lot to learn.
Seriously, I left my first track day a little depressed because I had to re-assess my driving ability.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

If bigger brakes are not just for heat management what are they for?
As @churchx mentioned most modern cars are capable of engaging the abs with stock brakes when cold. Given that maximum braking occurs just before wheel lock-up then isn't the tyre the limiting component?

@JRitt

ABS was designed for better breaking performance on slippery conditions or bad quality pavement. What this has to do with breaking on the track? Very few people had issues with ABS on the track and this was usually on stock tires. When saying that only tires break the car, then lets start saying also that only low resistance tires make faster a car. Let's forget the engine parameter. If someone cannot understand basic principles and what a cooperation of systems means, then I cannot discuss more.

[churchx]

Hmm. Is this trolling, ignoring what everybody says?
And btw, ABS was designed mostly to keep control of car when emergency braking with wheel lock (no matter pavement), not reducing braking path.
Please read some articles on car and it's subsystems physics. If not theory behind, then at least actual real world tests of braking path with BBK or not, and with tires of more or less grip. Unless you consider all those theory articles / real world tests / car & brakes manufacturers & pro drivers claims to be falsified by some giant evil conspiracy to lie to you just as we all here lied.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

ABS was designed for better breaking performance on slippery conditions or bad quality pavement. What this has to do with breaking on the track? Very few people had issues with ABS on the track and this was usually on stock tires. When saying that only tires break the car, then lets start saying also that only low resistance tires make faster a car. Let's forget the engine parameter. If someone cannot understand basic principles and what a cooperation of systems means, then I cannot discuss more.

You are misconstruing my argument.
I maintain that tyres are the limiting factor in braking distance.

I will state my premise:
if you can engage ABS (or lock the brakes without ABS) with stock brakes you cannot utilise any more braking torque.

[Captain Snooze]

@Racecomp Engineering
@CSG Mike

[Cybmx]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

ABS was designed for better breaking performance on slippery conditions or bad quality pavement. What this has to do with breaking on the track? Very few people had issues with ABS on the track and this was usually on stock tires. When saying that only tires break the car, then lets start saying also that only low resistance tires make faster a car. Let's forget the engine parameter. If someone cannot understand basic principles and what a cooperation of systems means, then I cannot discuss more.

Actually, abs will be less useful on slippery condition and bad quality pavement. Think about icy road and gravel. Have you seen any rally cars using ABS?

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by dooms101

Is there a quick guide to the different sport modes?

While this was already answered, you should probably read the users manual again for the $25k piece of machinery you bought.

[dooms101]

Originally Posted by churchx

@dooms101: yeah, go on track with just pads & fluid changed and on stock tires. I'm guessing that after few track days when you'll familiarise with car capabilities & limits (thankfully lower due low grip stock tires = better for learning), next cheap mod to improve car would be adding some negative camber (i advise leaving stock rubber topmounts, if you mostly dailydrive. Pillowball mounts of camber plates with stock coilovers = bad experience at least on bad roads here). Get camberbolts for front & SPC LCA for rear, tune max neg camber you can get with bolts front, and 0.5 less camber in rear, 0 toe in front, 0.1 toe-in rear. About that time you might get really hooked on trackdays (it's VERY ADDICTIVE ), and probably through stock tires, so with some experience behind belt you may try grippier tires, eg. AD08 or MPSS of stock size. This is good point to stop spendings, if not, for future you may consider more track fit coilovers, maybe camber plates for more neg. camber then that of just camber bolts, wider & stickier tires, forced induction .. and yeah, BBK too. By this time you may start to feel and know what may seem lacking/limiting to YOU, and what exactly you wish to improve.

As for electronic nannies - i'd go first laps with VSC on (TRC off in simple way makes no difference, as reaching 20-30kmh it's back on again), and notice when it interrupts. Then - with TRC off (press 5sec for it to "stick"), or even better - with "Pedal dance".
But with later two options: 1) it's mostly up to you to not do stupid things and correct mistakes with pedal work and countersteering, no nannies that (though in unpleasant and too sudden way) will correct too big mistakes now and save you. Luckily on track it's often much safer to mistake then on public roads, with just sliding on wide track or grass to stop, not hitting road kerb/other cars/trees/walls.
2) more then probably you may spin-out few times. You can try to do it even intentionally (in safer spaces relative to others and with big enough area without obstacles to not hit anything when out of control) to get feel of spinning and timing to correct
3) remember about way less grip available on plate when wet, so with trc off 5s/pedal dance be way more careful during rain and in winter, entry speeds and accel should be way lower
4) remember that it's easier to lessen understeer with mass (&grip) transfer to front .. you can use slight braking & letting of gas to better turn, especially if you still have stock camber of 0, with car rather understeerish for safety. Adding gas in beginning or mid turn may make you plow front out, as it will reduce front grip.
5) i hope that HPDE instructor has tought right steering wheel hold/steering way and seating pose, will help to countersteer in much quicker fashion (the sooner it's done, the less correction angle is needed). Better leave shuffling out of track
6) don't get overconfident. Not just on track (you will get better with more seat time, but not suddenly ideal. After several track days this year i know limits of car better, i now spin out way less and can correct most of mistakes, but i'm still only at beginning of learning road), but especially on public roads after track (where i advise always leaving at least VSC on).

Thanks for all the tips. I was thinking I would leave the nannies on just to get used to track driving for the first session and then turn it off after that. I'd like to think that I'm going to keep it straight but I'm sure I'll spin out a bunch.

I've been drooling over suspension parts but I probably wont get anything for a while since I don't really know what I need. The Eibach kits look like a good value but I don't think changing the ride characteristics before I learn how to actually drive is a good idea. I only know a little about camber, toe-in/out, caster etc so I am going to do more research over the next couple months. I see a lot of people upgrading the LCAs right off the bat, is that mostly for adjustability? I'm guessing the stock ones are not adjustable.

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

My apologies. Getting emotional content across the internet is a little difficult.
I wasn't having a go at you or implying you were a hoon.
The point I was trying to make was as Stugray said. That is, one track day is all it takes to make you realise you/I have a lot to learn.
Seriously, I left my first track day a little depressed because I had to re-assess my driving ability.

Its all good, the more info and advice the better! I can't wait for my first track day, I'm just hoping I don't go out there and look like a fool. I have no idea if I'll do well or not. Hopefully I can keep it on the track at least

Originally Posted by strat61caster

While this was already answered, you should probably read the users manual again for the $25k piece of machinery you bought.

I have it in front of me now

[kch]

Originally Posted by dooms101

I just ordered a bunch of parts and I threw in a set of Hawk Performance ceramic pads (front and rear). I want something that would be a nice upgrade over stock but not too harsh for normal driving. Does anyone have experience with these pads?

Those are not track pads, and will not hold up to track use (even at the novice level). Forget the idea of having one set of pads that you can use for daily AND track. Anything suitable for track use will be unbearable on the street. Accordingly, I swap pads on Saturday morning before every track event.

I initially tracked with Hawk HP+ pads on stock brakes with RBF660 fluid. They worked okay at first. However, they produce tons of noise and dust, and I quickly outgrew them. I switched to Cobalt Friction XR2 after that, and they handled everything I threw at them with ease. They're kinda pricey, though.

You can also check out something like the Carbotech XP10 or XP12, or similar offerings from G-LOC. I know a lot of people like Winmax W5s, too.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by kch

Those are not track pads, and will not hold up to track use (even at the novice level). Forget the idea of having one set of pads that you can use for daily AND track. Anything suitable for track use will be unbearable on the street. Accordingly, I swap pads on Saturday morning before every track event.

I initially tracked with Hawk HP+ pads on stock brakes with RBF660 fluid. They worked okay at first. However, they produce tons of noise and dust, and I quickly outgrew them. I switched to Cobalt Friction XR2 after that, and they handled everything I threw at them with ease. They're kinda pricey, though.

You can also check out something like the Carbotech XP10 or XP12, or similar offerings from G-LOC. I know a lot of people like Winmax W5s, too.

For someone with no experience one could do worse than Hawks, hell they could probably get 3-4 track days out of OE pads depending on how quick they learn. What's done is done, use them up OP.