follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook. Interested in the FT-1? Check out FT1Club
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Rexpeed
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Scion FR-S Forum | Subaru BRZ Forum | Toyota 86 GT 86 Forum | AS1 Forum - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Forced Induction

Forced Induction Turbo, Supercharger, Methanol, Nitrous


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-08-2013, 12:39 AM   #57
Dezoris
Senior Member
 
Dezoris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Drives: FR-S
Location: IL
Posts: 2,848
Thanks: 516
Thanked 2,902 Times in 1,081 Posts
Mentioned: 148 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by spdfreak View Post
Very impressive review/documentary. Thanks for putting it all together!

I'm in your area, hope to see you around.
Thank you!
Hope so, rarely see any FRS/BRZ out here.
Dezoris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 12:46 AM   #58
Dezoris
Senior Member
 
Dezoris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Drives: FR-S
Location: IL
Posts: 2,848
Thanks: 516
Thanked 2,902 Times in 1,081 Posts
Mentioned: 148 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
LOGS ADDED:

This shows different approaches in terms of timing and AFRs for the base maps for each tuner:


MOST AGGRESSIVE BASE TUNES: (TIMING)

1. FA20CLUB
2. PERRIN
3. VISCONTI



This map shows slight differences in timing for all three tuners, Perrin and FA20club are almost identical in AFRs up top.







There is a lot more than goes into these tunes that owners cannot see or edit given the ECUtek licensing scheme. While this unfortunately does not help with transparency, it helps protect the tuners work.

Tuning is not just as simple as clicking some boxes but once base maps are built it gets easier.
Dezoris is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dezoris For This Useful Post:
ft86me (07-08-2013), RedAlert (07-08-2013)
Old 07-08-2013, 10:33 AM   #59
nelsmar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Drives: FR-S
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 2,597
Thanks: 732
Thanked 2,344 Times in 1,025 Posts
Mentioned: 344 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
On the above post: are all there of these on the same cars? (yours?) If not it would be best to add in MAF reading, ambient temperature, intake temperature, oil temp, coolant temp, and atmospheric pressure would be nice to see.

In my area I have an average atmospheric temperature of 100+F, which leads me to never, ever see below 100F IAT, and always seeing 200+C oil temps. This would under most tunes fall under an enrichment trim due to temperatures. If i showed you my logs you would see flat AFR maxed out (on the OEM sensor) and never further than ~ 17.5 ignition. This can swing the results a fair bit.
__________________
When I grow up, I wanna be God.
My flickr - Canibeat
Local magazine scout
Old Setup: Vortech Supercharged 360WHP/262WTQ @ 11.5psi
My build thread - WTF happened to nelsmar's car thread
nelsmar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 11:07 AM   #60
pheoxs
Hold my beer n watch this
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Drives: '14 Fiesta ST / '91 240sx
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 782
Thanks: 214
Thanked 301 Times in 177 Posts
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nelsmar View Post
On the above post: are all there of these on the same cars? (yours?) If not it would be best to add in MAF reading, ambient temperature, intake temperature, oil temp, coolant temp, and atmospheric pressure would be nice to see.

In my area I have an average atmospheric temperature of 100+F, which leads me to never, ever see below 100F IAT, and always seeing 200+C oil temps. This would under most tunes fall under an enrichment trim due to temperatures. If i showed you my logs you would see flat AFR maxed out (on the OEM sensor) and never further than ~ 17.5 ignition. This can swing the results a fair bit.
200+C

pheoxs is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to pheoxs For This Useful Post:
Pete (07-08-2013)
Old 07-08-2013, 12:45 PM   #61
Dezoris
Senior Member
 
Dezoris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Drives: FR-S
Location: IL
Posts: 2,848
Thanks: 516
Thanked 2,902 Times in 1,081 Posts
Mentioned: 148 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nelsmar View Post
On the above post: are all there of these on the same cars? (yours?) If not it would be best to add in MAF reading, ambient temperature, intake temperature, oil temp, coolant temp, and atmospheric pressure would be nice to see.

In my area I have an average atmospheric temperature of 100+F, which leads me to never, ever see below 100F IAT, and always seeing 200+C oil temps. This would under most tunes fall under an enrichment trim due to temperatures. If i showed you my logs you would see flat AFR maxed out (on the OEM sensor) and never further than ~ 17.5 ignition. This can swing the results a fair bit.
I looked at about 20 logs over the past few months from varying conditions from poor (hot, 91 octane, no oil cooler/radiator) to best case (low oil, coolant temps, ambient temps humidty etc.)

The chart is an average of all of those, which I feel should be a pretty good snapshot of what to expect. Now granted I am reverse engineering the data, don't take it as gospel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pheoxs View Post
200+C

Maybe he is using the engine to also heat his home, sounds very green.
Dezoris is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dezoris For This Useful Post:
nelsmar (07-08-2013)
Old 07-08-2013, 12:53 PM   #62
DJCarbine
Thupercharged
 
DJCarbine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Drives: 2013 FR-S
Location: La Grange Park, IL.
Posts: 1,488
Thanks: 116
Thanked 740 Times in 431 Posts
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dezoris View Post
I looked at about 20 logs over the past few months from varying conditions from poor (hot, 91 octane, no oil cooler/radiator) to best case (low oil, coolant temps, ambient temps humidty etc.)
Did you notice anything that pertains to high oil temperatures? Pulled timing? More fueling?
__________________
2013 FRS
Vortech V3 3.125" pulley
Revworks UEL - PLM Overpipe - MOTIV catted frontpipe - Invidia Q300
Raceseng CasCam, Eibach Sportlines, 25mm/19mm front/rear sway, Whiteline endlinks
2005 Saabaru - Blouch TD05-16GXT @ 20psi
DJCarbine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 12:54 PM   #63
sw20kosh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: 2013 Black FR-S
Location: SF
Posts: 2,974
Thanks: 877
Thanked 1,914 Times in 948 Posts
Mentioned: 149 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
FA20club timing advance!!!

It is significantly different than the others. For example, 3 degrees of timing advance grants about 20-30 whp on my application. It would be even more difference on a turbo car.
sw20kosh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 01:25 PM   #64
Dezoris
Senior Member
 
Dezoris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Drives: FR-S
Location: IL
Posts: 2,848
Thanks: 516
Thanked 2,902 Times in 1,081 Posts
Mentioned: 148 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJCarbine View Post
Did you notice anything that pertains to high oil temperatures? Pulled timing? More fueling?
Short answer is does not appear to make a huge difference. Talking 1 degree variance most of the time and I can't prove its not other factors causing it. (Other than oil/coolant temps)

Also this is paper research...

I need more recent logs though so I need to start trolling and get people to donate.
Dezoris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2013, 09:25 AM   #65
regal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: Scion FR-S/Toyota Yaris
Location: PA
Posts: 1,438
Thanks: 21
Thanked 316 Times in 232 Posts
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dezoris View Post
Short answer is does not appear to make a huge difference. Talking 1 degree variance most of the time and I can't prove its not other factors causing it. (Other than oil/coolant temps)

Also this is paper research...

I need more recent logs though so I need to start trolling and get people to donate.

The way the ECU is setup on this car is it relies heavily on the Knock sensor feedback (knock correction.) This is why the these cars dyno all over the place. I think its a way they get to pass emission laws around the world but isn't great for long term durability (especially with FI.)

A safer tune will rely less on knock correction and just tune out detonation as much as possible.

The FA20 tune may be giving you more timing because you're using 93 in IL where the same tune on CA gas may give a less advance (since you can only see the end result with data logging.)

I would be interesting in seeing knock logs doing a 0-80 mpg run on the three tunes.
__________________
2013 FRS Argento Silver 6MT

Mods:
Clear fender side lights
Tactrix ZA1JB01C 2014 Calib
regal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2013, 10:23 AM   #66
jamesm
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Drives: 2013 FR-S
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 2,929
Thanks: 1,166
Thanked 2,276 Times in 1,175 Posts
Mentioned: 313 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
my car logged lots of knock correction when it was stock. now that i have the turbo kit and the tune is close to final, i haven't recorded any.
jamesm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2013, 10:58 AM   #67
pheoxs
Hold my beer n watch this
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Drives: '14 Fiesta ST / '91 240sx
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 782
Thanks: 214
Thanked 301 Times in 177 Posts
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dezoris View Post
Short answer is does not appear to make a huge difference. Talking 1 degree variance most of the time and I can't prove its not other factors causing it. (Other than oil/coolant temps)

Also this is paper research...

I need more recent logs though so I need to start trolling and get people to donate.
Too bad I couldn't get Perrin to hook me up with a complimentary tune just for comparison sakes. It would be great to give a good comparison between all 3 back to back and I'm up for running any data logs people want as you've seen.

Also if you need anymore just gimme a shout

@PERRIN
@PERRIN_Chris
@PERRIN_Jeff
@PERRIN_Mladen
pheoxs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2013, 01:19 PM   #68
Dezoris
Senior Member
 
Dezoris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Drives: FR-S
Location: IL
Posts: 2,848
Thanks: 516
Thanked 2,902 Times in 1,081 Posts
Mentioned: 148 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by regal View Post
The way the ECU is setup on this car is it relies heavily on the Knock sensor feedback (knock correction.) This is why the these cars dyno all over the place. I think its a way they get to pass emission laws around the world but isn't great for long term durability (especially with FI.)

A safer tune will rely less on knock correction and just tune out detonation as much as possible.

The FA20 tune may be giving you more timing because you're using 93 in IL where the same tune on CA gas may give a less advance (since you can only see the end result with data logging.)

I would be interesting in seeing knock logs doing a 0-80 mpg run on the three tunes.
When I built the chart that was the first thing I looked at, all logs chosen were those with positive knock learn values and no knock.

Viscontis logs always had a zero knock learn, but no knock.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesm View Post
my car logged lots of knock correction when it was stock. now that i have the turbo kit and the tune is close to final, i haven't recorded any.
I am seeing similar results.
Dezoris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2013, 01:21 PM   #69
Dezoris
Senior Member
 
Dezoris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Drives: FR-S
Location: IL
Posts: 2,848
Thanks: 516
Thanked 2,902 Times in 1,081 Posts
Mentioned: 148 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pheoxs View Post
Too bad I couldn't get Perrin to hook me up with a complimentary tune just for comparison sakes. It would be great to give a good comparison between all 3 back to back and I'm up for running any data logs people want as you've seen.

Also if you need anymore just gimme a shout
Will let you know,

Yeah I am sure not many people have run all three tunes using Vortech yet.

If I was going to switch it would be to FA20. But based on the logs I have looked at the Perrin tune has a very good middle ground for the base map, and the 4th map is aggressive if you want to get crazy.
Dezoris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2013, 04:36 PM   #70
ftc~brz
Done
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Drives: WRB BRZ
Location: MD
Posts: 1,875
Thanks: 9,945
Thanked 4,935 Times in 2,101 Posts
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 7 Thread(s)
Garage
thank you much for all the time you put into sharing this valuable information. Everything was very helpful and honest. I like that. There is definitely risk involved and it was refreshing to see someone share what we all think about but don't always voice.
ftc~brz is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ftc~brz For This Useful Post:
Dezoris (07-10-2013)
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
brz vortech supercharger install? Sniper2606 Forced Induction 16 05-07-2013 03:31 PM
*PHASTEK* Perrin Tuned Vortech Supercharger Install Thread (3 Vehicles, 3 Kits) PhastekSport Forced Induction 425 04-26-2013 10:06 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.