BRZ vs. Fiesta ST - great track review

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

There wasn't one.

It was nothing more than an advertisement for a Fiesta and BRZ with some very "safe" critiques so they can appear to actually be doing a review.

"Oh the BRZ has a chinsy interior pieces."
"The Fiesta's parking brake is too low."


This review wasn't done by an amateur or by some bored member of the forum. These are paid automotive journalists and they deliver nothing more than an advertisement. They need to stop calling these things "reviews" and they need to stop calling themselves journalists. AutoGuide is just a marketing firm at this point.

I'm not sure I agree with this. They brought a semi-legit driver (part-time touring car and time attack driver), he drove the cars at Toronto Motorsports Park, they list his track times broken out by segment, they list telemetry data from the track, and they summarize their impressions of the cars from both the track and street. They also do a lot of comparing and contrasting of the cars, e.g., Fiesta has noticeably more midrange torque from 3000-5000 rpm, the BRZ pulls nicely from midrange to redline, the BRZ has better balance in corners, etc.

This is more comprehensive than most reviews actually, especially the h2h track impressions and data which you typically don't get. A lot of reviews these days seem content just testing the cars on the street and backroads.

I will say, one thing they didn't comment on -- that I think they should have -- is braking. The data indicates the BRZ had a sizeable braking advantage (0.92 g max for the BRZ vs. 0.71 g for the Fiesta). I would think that would have been as much of a factor in the BRZ making up time as its "neutral" balance in turns, which they cited as the reason the BRZ was faster.

Originally Posted by Demandred7

Yeah, EVO magazine has a thing against the GT86. Not sure what their problem is.

It started with their bashing of the BRZ when it first came out. I don't know if it's because they tested an automatic or they left the nannies on, but for whatever reason, they couldn't get any power oversteer which they were apparently expecting. That bashing left them on an island, so to speak, because every other major reviewer loved the car and had no problem balancing them at the limit... other than Evo.

As the Twins started racking up awards, Evo went further out of their way to downplay the BRZ and GT86. At times it's nonsensical what they say (e.g., the BRZ is awful because it understeers; the GT86 is awful because it oversteers). At the same time, they've backtracked quite a bit from that initial BRZ bashing, even at times calling them good "drivers cars".

Frankly it all come across as incoherent and illogical, especially if you read their reviews in the context of their earlier reviews. My guess is there's some twisting and contorting of words going on there to fit editorial decisions.

[rice_classic]

It wasn't that bad, I'm just doing my taxes on my second monitor and I'm bitter and angry right now.

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I'm not sure I agree with this. They brought a semi-legit driver....

The rest of your counter point is well received especially how they have data but completely overlook the important thing it illustrates; but bringing in a "pro" to the show is a well known tool for selling a product. That's marketing 101.

Example:
"We're here today with professional racing driver ______ to show you how Meguirs car polish will make you more appealing to the opposite sex!"

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

It wasn't that bad, I'm just doing my taxes on my second monitor and I'm bitter and angry right now.



The rest of your counter point is well received especially how they have data but completely overlook the important thing it illustrates; but bringing in a "pro" to the show is a well known tool for selling a product. That's marketing 101.

Example:
"We're here today with professional racing driver ______ to show you how Meguirs car polish will make you more appealing to the opposite sex!"

I actually don't mind when pros come in and do timed laps. I feel like they'll show what a car's real potential is on a track, whereas joe journalist's laptimes are more of a reflection of his skill, or lack thereof.

And yeah don't even remind me, my taxes are going to be a nightmare this year (moved to a different state, got married). I've been putting it off...

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I actually don't mind when pros come in and do timed laps. I feel like they'll show what a car's real potential is on a track, whereas joe journalist's laptimes are more of a reflection of his skill, or lack thereof.

And yeah don't even remind me, my taxes are going to be a nightmare this year (moved to a different state, got married). I've been putting it off...

I'm not a pro, but I'll say that the Fiesta ST will be faster at most tracks than the BRZ... and for less coin

I'm faster at Streets of Willow in a stock Fiesta ST than a stock BRZ/FRS; Motor Trend uses SoWS as their default track for testing.
@DarkSunrise: my stance on the BRZ's balance has evolved... (pun intended) at about the same pace as EVO's. Strange. The car still pushes liek a big... if you don't drive it the way it wants to be driven. It's still faster in that understeering state.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I'm not a pro, but I'll say that the Fiesta ST will be faster at most tracks than the BRZ... and for less coin

I'm faster at Streets of Willow in a stock Fiesta ST than a stock BRZ/FRS; Motor Trend uses SoWS as their default track for testing.
@DarkSunrise: my stance on the BRZ's balance has evolved... (pun intended) at about the same pace as EVO's. Strange. The car still pushes liek a big... if you don't drive it the way it wants to be driven. It's still faster in that understeering state.

Interesting thoughts on the BRZ's balance. I can't comment too deeply since I've only tracked my FR-S and not a BRZ, but I have ridden shotgun in BRZs at autox and it seemed like they could be balanced on the throttle. I have a really hard time believing Evo couldn't get a BRZ to power oversteer, especially on the stock Primacys.

I don't know your thoughts on this, but the BRZ doesn't seem that different to me from a stock FR-S, which understeers a little on entry, but can be prodded into power oversteer on exit. The FR-S might a hair more neutral from what I can tell, but hardly the axe murderer type that Evo makes it out to be.

I know Randy Pobst commented on the BRZ/FR-S divide a while back and preferred the BRZ because it had that slight bit of additional understeer. He was also faster with it at SOWS if I remember correctly, so I think you're right about the car being faster with understeer.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Interesting thoughts on the BRZ's balance. I can't comment too deeply since I've only tracked my FR-S and not a BRZ, but I have ridden shotgun in BRZs at autox and it seemed like they could be balanced on the throttle. I have a really hard time believing Evo couldn't get a BRZ to power oversteer, especially on the stock Primacys.

I don't know your thoughts on this, but the BRZ doesn't seem that different to me from a stock FR-S, which understeers a little on entry, but can be prodded into power oversteer on exit. The FR-S might a hair more neutral from what I can tell, but hardly the axe murderer type that Evo makes it out to be.

I know Randy Pobst commented on the BRZ/FR-S divide a while back and preferred the BRZ because it had that slight bit of additional understeer. He was also faster with it at SOWS if I remember correctly, so I think you're right about the car being faster with understeer.

Both understeer unless you ease the car into a state of balance. Problem is, easing the car into that state takes way too long, so understeering through the turn is faster, albeit, cooking the front tires. If you can power oversteer, then you can still turn faster/harder, even in a state of understeer.

Get some seat time in EVOs/STis/GTRs if you can, and you'll discover how fast understeer can be... even when you're understeering, you can push the car to go faster, with more understeer, until you finally hit terminal.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Both understeer unless you ease the car into a state of balance. Problem is, easing the car into that state takes way too long, so understeering through the turn is faster, albeit, cooking the front tires. If you can power oversteer, then you can still turn faster/harder, even in a state of understeer.

Get some seat time in EVOs/STis/GTRs if you can, and you'll discover how fast understeer can be... even when you're understeering, you can push the car to go faster, with more understeer, until you finally hit terminal.

Yep agree with that. I actually used to own an STI hatch. It's very effective using trail-braking to help with turn-in and getting on the power early on the way out.

With my FR-S, I understeer into most corners, overcooking my front tires. It's probably faster as you say for the first few laps, but inevitably my front tires get greasy.

The bold part of your post is interesting though. What's the relation between being able to power oversteer and carrying more speed on entry? Are you talking about using the throttle to rotate/balance the car?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

What's the relation between being able to power oversteer and carrying more speed on entry? Are you talking about using the throttle to rotate/balance the car?

Slip angle, tangent to the turn you're making. If you're at a positive slip angle (understeering), at some point, ANY additional force will make the slip angle larger, rather than rotating the rear.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Slip angle, tangent to the turn you're making. If you're at a positive slip angle (understeering), at some point, ANY additional force will make the slip angle larger, rather than rotating the rear.

So pushing an understeering RWD car hard enough past a certain point, you can overcook a corner and generate enough understeer to negate a fair amount of power oversteer? I think that's what you're saying haha.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

So pushing an understeering RWD car hard enough past a certain point, you can overcook a corner and generate enough understeer to negate a fair amount of power oversteer? I think that's what you're saying haha.

basically, the rear wheels are pushing the car forward, so with a positive slip angle instead of negative, the force vector from the rear wheels actually make the car push more....

Yes :p

Draw a free body diagram :p

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

basically, the rear wheels are pushing the car forward, so with a positive slip angle instead of negative, the force vector from the rear wheels actually make the car push more....

Yes :p

Draw a free body diagram :p

Got it, that makes sense. So the rear tires push the car forward, increasing the positive slip angle or understeer.

And I take it, eventually you reach some balance between positive slip angle in the front and slight power oversteer in the rear, and that is the way to maximize your grip at all 4 corners in a turn?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Got it, that makes sense. So the rear tires push the car forward, increasing the positive slip angle or understeer.

And I take it, eventually you reach some balance between positive slip angle in the front and slight power oversteer in the rear, and that is the way to maximize your grip at all 4 corners in a turn?

Precisely. All tires have a state of slip that is optimal for the given tire.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Precisely. All tires have a state of slip that is optimal for the given tire.

It all makes sense in theory. Implementing it might be a different story though lol. Sounds difficult, need more driving skillz.

[Sport-Tech]

Don't recall Randy complaining about understeer in the BRZ. Here are his comments when asked to compare the twins in MT's "$28K 2 Door High Performance Comparison":

I like the Subaru better, primarily because it's less loose on entry. It has a more even balance, front to rear. It has more of an on-rails feeling than a rotating feeling. In the Scion, you feel the back move almost before the front. In the Subaru, it's more one-piece.