2017 Toyota 86 - new name, styling, and more power

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Ashikabi

Strike him down Tcoat. With all your power

Why? He is a reasonable guy with a decent argument that put up a great debate. He never even called me a troll once (yet). I sort of enjoyed that.


Now back to our regularly scheduled new version bashing.


So, I really don't like that droopy nose. Have I mentioned that?

[mazeroni]

Originally Posted by CatScan

The 86 is an aberration in the modern car world. I don't think it would ever have gotten out of the design studios if it had not been for the Scion brand being able to take a chance where Toyota would not. TC is absolutely correct in that this car has been "taken within the system" and is now managed by people who are excited by the Prius. Every iteration will drift farther and farther from the original design intent.

What about the partnership between Toyota and BMW for a Supra successor? I think that fact, coupled with changes at Lexus, and at the very least some attempt to make cars like the SE version of the Camry (XSE) less stodgy indicate Toyota recognizes a problem with the internal structure of the company.

Correct me if I am wrong but Akio Toyoda was brought into Toyota to make the brand more relevant - sporty. The average age of a Toyota buyer a few years ago was 60-something. The current industry average is now 51.7, apparently. Obviously a larger section of the population is ever-aging, but the point being Toyota was riding on the perception of reliability (recalls non-withstanding) while everyone else was embarrassed by riding with their grandparent in their beige Avalon. But when the people who make up the bulk of your sales are nearing the end of their lives, and younger people want 'cool' and 'sporty,' business as usual becomes a problem.

As for Scion and why they got the 86, it was a combination of the brand's faltering sales and Toyota wasn't sure how to sell the 86 to America buyers due to lack of standard features found on other $25K cars like the Camry, plus the service costs. Since Scion was envisioned as a gateway company into Toyota, the 86 was contrived as an FR-S. So I won't credit Scion with much of anything.

HOWEVER!!! Sorry... As I just wrote. There is a niche market for a stripped down sports car. But here is the thing. Toyota in the US has a perception they need to maintain. Be it boring. For old people. Reliable. Cheap obviously does not enter the equation. No buttons on the steering wheel? Panel gaps? Cheap interior materials? Horrible NVH? For $25K!? You got ripped off, kid!

In other parts of the world, Mercedes/ BMW/ Audi can sell stripper cars that play in the same market as the Civic and Focus. That doesn't really fly in America for any number of reasons. Though to be fair the CLA and A3, despite not being the best for the money, are still selling well (I would never waste my money on either for brand image). So does the 86 coming under the Toyota brand in the US change things? Yea, probably. Maybe the rest of the world will see a future 86 that is stripped down, but so long as America buyers hold perceptions about what a Toyota should be in their minds, I would expect a lot more changes in the future.

If a young kid in the 18-48 age bracket buys an FR-S, and it feels like a well-built car with loads of features, don't you think he is more likely to come back when he has a family and buy a RAV-4 or Camry once he has a family? If he has a bad experience with his Toyota 86, what are the odds he says 'never again.' But I think that really only works as a business model (transition from wasteful youth to responsible adult) is if you sell enough cars to see meaningful results - 10K a year won't cut it.

The 86 was a first attempt by Toyota (in a long time). A good attempt, I think. But the car was more about Toyota making a statement about what they can do and how they envision the future of the company. What they learned the first go around has to evolve and grow with whatever fundamental shift the company makes. Or Toyota plays by their old rules and continues to attract older people and drives younger buyers away.

To me,changes do not inherently mean a fundamental shift away from keeping the car simple and fun to drive. I'll point to Lexus and what they are doing to show Toyota is serious about making big changes. Plus Toyota putting out more interesting designs and offering more feature-laden XSE Camrys where before the SE was the sportiest and nobody cared. I certainly hope that the 86 remains a special project for Akio Toyoda, totally under the control of the engineers he chooses. But Akio has to have learned something along the way and will implement changes that speak to the core mission of 86. So buttons on the steering wheel and hill-hold.

Anyway, there is my rant.

With all of that said, I need to point out that autonomous cars and a growing demographic of young people who give 0 shits about driving may well completely turn the automotive industry as we know it on its head. Sports cars could be gone before we know it. (had to end on a negative!)

[Mim]

Originally Posted by mazeroni

What about the partnership between Toyota and BMW for a Supra successor? I think that fact, coupled with changes at Lexus, and at the very least some attempt to make cars like the SE version of the Camry (XSE) less stodgy indicate Toyota recognizes a problem with the internal structure of the company.

Correct me if I am wrong but Akio Toyoda was brought into Toyota to make the brand more relevant - sporty. The average age of a Toyota buyer a few years ago was 60-something. The current industry average is now 51.7, apparently. Obviously a larger section of the population is ever-aging, but the point being Toyota was riding on the perception of reliability (recalls non-withstanding) while everyone else was embarrassed by riding with their grandparent in their beige Avalon. But when the people who make up the bulk of your sales are nearing the end of their lives, and younger people want 'cool' and 'sporty,' business as usual becomes a problem.

As for Scion and why they got the 86, it was a combination of the brand's faltering sales and Toyota wasn't sure how to sell the 86 to America buyers due to lack of standard features found on other $25K cars like the Camry, plus the service costs. Since Scion was envisioned as a gateway company into Toyota, the 86 was contrived as an FR-S. So I won't credit Scion with much of anything.

HOWEVER!!! Sorry... As I just wrote. There is a niche market for a stripped down sports car. But here is the thing. Toyota in the US has a perception they need to maintain. Be it boring. For old people. Reliable. Cheap obviously does not enter the equation. No buttons on the steering wheel? Panel gaps? Cheap interior materials? Horrible NVH? For $25K!? You got ripped off, kid!

In other parts of the world, Mercedes/ BMW/ Audi can sell stripper cars that play in the same market as the Civic and Focus. At least not traditionally. That doesn't really fly in America for any number of reasons. Though to be fair the CLA and A3, despite not being the best for the money, are still selling well (I would never waste my money on either for brand image). So does the 86 coming under the Toyota brand in the US change things? Yea, probably. Maybe the rest of the world will see a future 86 that is stripped down, but so long as America buyers hold perceptions about what a Toyota should be in their minds, I would expect a lot more changes in the future.

If a young kid in the 18-48 age bracket buys an FR-S, and it feels like a well-built car with loads of features, don't you think he is more likely to come back when he has a family and buy a RAV-4 or Camry once he has a family? If he has a bad experience with his Toyota 86, what are the odds he says 'never again.' But I think that really only works as a business model (transition from wasteful youth to responsible adult) is if you sell enough cars to see meaningful results - 10K a year won't cut it.

The 86 was a first attempt by Toyota (in a long time). A good attempt, I think. But the car was more about Toyota making a statement about what they can do and how they envision the future of the company. What they learned the first go around has to evolve and grow with whatever fundamental shift the company makes. Or Toyota plays by their old rules and continues to attract older people and drives younger buyers away.

To me,changes do not inherently mean a fundamental shift away from keeping the car simple and fun to drive. I'll point to Lexus and what they are doing to show Toyota is serious about making big changes. Plus Toyota putting out more interesting designs and offering more feature-laden XSE Camrys where before the SE was the sportiest and nobody cared. I certainly hope that the 86 remains a special project for Akio Toyoda, totally under the control of the engineers he chooses. But Akio has to have learned something along the way and will implement changes that speak to the core mission of 86. So buttons on the steering wheel and hill-hold.

Anyway, there is my rant.

With all of that said, I need to point out that autonomous cars and a growing demographic of young people who give 0 shits about driving may well completely turn the automotive industry as we know it on its head. Sports cars could be gone before we know it. (had to end on a negative!)

I agree with you. That said If we throw the whole aging population and how people are living longer argument into the equation then perhaps Toyota is onto something with regards to your comment around the average age of a buyer!

[mazeroni]

Originally Posted by Mim

I agree with you. That said If we throw the whole aging population and how people are living longer argument into the equation then perhaps Toyota is onto something with regards to your comment around the average age of a buyer!

Good! Because it is so very, very late and I started to ramble. Then edited. Then rambled some more. If anyone wants to make sense of some of what I wrote, have at it! I am going to bed.

[Mim]

Wait. What were we all talking about again?

[cyde01]

Originally Posted by Ashikabi

Strike him down Tcoat. With all your power

Ummmmm ok lol can a guy have a debate on a forum without it turning into a trollfest?

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Why? He is a reasonable guy with a decent argument that put up a great debate. He never even called me a troll once (yet). I sort of enjoyed that.

Thank you for understanding that debates can remain friendly!

[OldSkoolToys]

To be perfectly honest, I don't see whats wrong with that steering wheel, other than the completely pointless radio controls on it.

And hill assist? Really?........Really Toyota?

I'll reserve judgement on the exterior updates until I see it in person. Currently though, blegh. I actually like the zenki tail lights better.

What I DO find curious are these gearing and suspension changes. If I were a betting man it's probably just the final drive. Cheaper and easier to change from a manufacturing standpoint than the entire gearbox in a transmission. It makes sense too; to help its 0-60 and acceleration. Dropping the 4.3 and installing the 4.7 in an AE86 with a 4AG wakes that engine right up! I am also in the camp that believes the suspension changes have made it more neutral, which is NOT a bad thing.

Those two remaining 2015 FR-S' at the local dealer though are looking very tempting now though. Especially since they're heavily discounted.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

To be perfectly honest, I don't see whats wrong with that steering wheel, other than the completely pointless radio controls on it.

Don't know if the controls are totally useless. The volume knob and mode button on the HU must be 5 or 6 inches from my right hand when it is on the wheel. Not sure if it is safe for me to reach over and turn up my Bieber when in mid drift yo.

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Don't know if the controls are totally useless. The volume knob and mode button on the HU must be 5 or 6 inches from my right hand when it is on the wheel. Not sure if it is safe for me to reach over and turn up my Bieber when in mid drift yo.

Eh, to me they're pointless- edit: Just got off work, wow am I tired. That sarcasm went WHOOSH!

Second Edit: The hill assist still baffles me. I've been watching local inventory on FR-S' /BRZ's for almost 2 years now, window shopping and drooling. The MT's always, ALWAYS sell faster than the AT. I wonder what bean counter at Toyota said "We need hill assist, to help the sales of the MT cars! That are out pacing the AT's already!"

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

Eh, to me they're pointless. My right arm still extends outwards and my hands and fingers still turn knobs and push buttons just fine. I am also a purist on the "spartan" steering wheel.

Was a joke (well sarcasm)
I do not see how anybody could find them useful when like I said the HU ones are a few inches away. Don't even need to look at them. Not like a 78 Chrysler New Yorker where the radio was 3 feet away.

[GhostRai]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

That is not the size of a North American plate though is it? Would ours not be shorter and taller? I think they would stick up too high.

It doesn't look like a NA plate, plus it says "GT86" so its most likely a European plate. I don't think they can really mount it that much farther up so it may dip down into the grill area a tiny bit. It looks cleaner even with that thinner plate as it hides some of the weird wavy lines in the grill and aesthetically I'd rather have a center plate than asymmetrical.

[Kiske]

I welcome the ugly bumpers... just means were getting a larger aftermarket selection in the future.

[Hotrodheart]

Five more horsepower?!?!?! My nipples explode with delight!


P.S. Meh on the new front end. I like mine better.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

Eh, to me they're pointless- edit: Just got off work, wow am I tired. That sarcasm went WHOOSH!

Second Edit: The hill assist still baffles me. I've been watching local inventory on FR-S' /BRZ's for almost 2 years now, window shopping and drooling. The MT's always, ALWAYS sell faster than the AT. I wonder what bean counter at Toyota said "We need hill assist, to help the sales of the MT cars! That are out pacing the AT's already!"

The Bean Counters don't want that stuff the Product Pushers do.
I forgot to put that assist on my list of items slowly changing the car to meet the broader target audience!