Future of the "twins"

[regal]

I've daily driven this car for almost a year and not once felt it needed more power. The last decade there has been a tremendous upswing in general for automobiles boasting huge horsepower/torque but very poor development with regard to chassis and handling. Up until the turn of the century a car that does 0 to 60 in 6.5 seconds was considered fast . Recently we have seen an odd resurgence of straight line muscle cars and awkward fwd torque happy sedans/ hatchbacks.

What does the future hold for the twins? I don't think a 2.5L H4 will fit in the twin's chassis (look at how close the valve covers are to the rails.) A turbo takes away from the smooth throttle response and doesn't "it" the design of the OEM car..

The FA20 is not going to gain significant power non-aspirated, the boxer design is just a limitation. With the rwd, the powertrain losses are too great to notice small hp improvements like an intake and exhaust, and I think idea that heads/cams and a higher redline will be nixed due to reliable with a boxer, boxers just aren't designed to rev.

I owned an early 90' OEM supercharged car, it was a thunderbird supercoupe. 0-60 and 1/4 mile performance was nearly the same as the BRZ , it was considered a fast car and had an IRS, just weighed too much.

The only direction for this car to get more OEM horsepower will be a positive displacement supercharger like that thunderbird had. Centrifugal superchargers like the Vortech don't meet OEM longevity requirements , correct me if I am wrong but no OEM has never used a centrifugal supercharger I understand they rarely last 50k miles.

If we are lucky TRD will make a positive displacement supercharged GT86 but doubtful it will reach the USA/Scion brand, and Subaru will focus STI on their sedan, pretty sure they have exhausted their R&D budget with the BRZ and aren't getting a great return on investment with Toyota's allotment/ratio deal. STI will make a few adjustments and add 15-20 whp to the car, nothing to get excited about.

So I enjoy the car as is, it is quick and has this best chassis/suspension of any daily driver, it is an instant classic, I hope the engine was over-engineered and won't suffer reliability issues like most recent na Subaru motors.

The interesting thing will be sales. If Honda lost money on the S2k project you have to wonder how much legs the twins will have. Honda completely pulled out of the sports car market after the S2k because it was a business failure, great car but sales were poor and they lost money. The S2k was more popular/harder to obtain than the twins in its first production year yet it still failed. We may see a huge decline in sales of the twins by the third year.

Both Subaru and Scion USA sales were in the toilet prior to the twins, I hope sales of the twins are strong, become greater than the STI and steal a large portion of the Honda's market share. It could be this decade's Integra. Or it could be a flop like the S2k and MR-S, but I am optimistic that there are 100:1 people that prefer a non-convertible sports car. The 240SX in the 90's and the E30 BMW in the 80's had the right idea, this car does everything those cars did and more.

[cf6mech]

I disagree with most of your post,...but I'll let others pipe in.

[clayrush]

lol Subaru was in no way in the shitter. They out sold Chrysler, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Mazda, Lexus ect.
Scion only sold 73,505 units last year but that was still up over 40% from the year before and as a newer sub brand it still did better than Volvo and Mitsubishi

On the side I wonder if Toyota lost money on the Celica or MR2. Just like Lexus blowing money on the LFA and selling them for a loss. But it sure as hell got the attention of people. Sports car losses are not that big of a deal if they captured customers to the brand. My moms first car was a Celica and my dads first car was a Corolla. Every car after has been a Toyota for the exception for my pops 370Z. And you can bet if there was a sports car from Toyota at that level he would have gone for it.

As for whats next for the twins? It has been endlessly debated, and I believe nothing till it happens. All I know is that it's fast in the bends, but I want it to be able to beat a mini van getting on the highway. So far a full exhaust and tune has not even satisfied my Girlfriends driving stile let alone mine. So any F.I. will be better for us.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by regal

and Subaru will focus STI on their sedan, pretty sure they have exhausted their R&D budget with the BRZ and aren't getting a great return on investment with Toyota's allotment/ratio deal.

I agree with most of what you said except this. Toyota is paying for Subaru (Fuji Heavy Industries) for every Toyota GT86 and Scion FRS rolling out of the factory, yes Subaru isn't netting as much profit per unit as they possibly could but they are making a profit on each car built, I think this was an incredibly tidy deal from the looks of things.

-Subaru has a car that's buzz worthy, despite the fanboyism the WRX and Impreza have always been niche cars with well documented shortcomings
-Subaru NEEDED direct injection to help their economy numbers, this deal probably SAVED them money on R&D due to the Toyota knowledge sharing
-IF Subaru were to sell these on it's own, they simply couldn't match Toyota's distribution capabilities, selling these to Toyota nets them some of the profit of the larger production without the extra legwork of moving the units

[slidethis]

Umm you know toyota owns 16.5 percent of subaru right. Just throwing it out there for ya.

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[trd_kid]

kinda off topic but does anybody else see that maybe this was a test from toyota to see if they should increase their stake in fuji or let it go???

I mean first the pumped up their shares, then told subaru they would supply the kei cars for subaru with cars from daihatsu (subaru kei cars used to be manufactured at the gunma plant where the twins are made), then pitch the idea for a radical rwd sports car (radical for the generation , and also very radical for subaru), to finally create one of the most talked about/praised/raved/etc cars in a very long time...

I'm not expert but I think toyota knew subaru was a diamond in the rough when they first purchased the shares , and in due time subaru will be consumed into toyota which isn't a bad thing as both manufacturers have created amazing machinery during their time and so far seem to be able to collaborate and come together to continue the history

/drunk rant

[slidethis]

And General motors use to own subaru but couldn't keep up with sales due to.....you know what happened....and big giant Toyota saved the company. Andddd I bet you didn't know this.. Toyota also announced today that it will work closer with small-car specialist Daihatsu, which it owns a 51.19% stake in. Daihatsu already manufactures a range of compact ‘Kei’ cars – tiny Japanese runabouts with 0.6L three-cylinder engines – and it’s expertise will help Toyota with development of its upcoming*iQ.



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[CSI:86]

There will DEFINITELY be no FI:

If toyota introduces a FI GT86, BRZ sales will plummet; toyota doesnt want that as toyota owns about 15% of subaru and wants equality amongst the twins.

If subaru introduces a FI BRZ, it will clash with the WRX market as their is the similarity of FI.

If you want more daily driveability, a tune and a header is the way to go. Eliminates the torque dip and makes the power feel much more linear.


Concerning s2k's failure, the reason it failed was because of its high price at that time and its complete impracticability. Honda is well known as a brand of affordable and practical cars. S2K was contradictory to both of those characteristics.

The twins are made by Toyota and Subaru. Both brands of affordable and practical cars as well. They got the affordability completely right. Practicality is right to some individuals and is not right to others. The twins will very unlikely be as big as a failure as the s2k.

[regal]

Originally Posted by CSI:86

There will DEFINITELY be no FI:

If toyota introduces a FI GT86, BRZ sales will plummet; toyota doesnt want that as toyota owns about 15% of subaru and wants equality amongst the twins.

If subaru introduces a FI BRZ, it will clash with the WRX market as their is the similarity of FI.

If you want more daily driveability, a tune and a header is the way to go. Eliminates the torque dip and makes the power feel much more linear.


The twins are made by Toyota and Subaru. Both brands of affordable and practical cars as well. They got the affordability completely right. Practicality is right to some individuals and is not right to others. The twins will very unlikely be as big as a failure as the s2k.

I believe you are be right about OE FI.

But as far as DD practicality, I disagree with the comparison to the S2K. There are a lot more single men and women now days into their late 30's even later, lot of people put off having a family. The '86 is very practical if you have no kids, much more so than a convertible. I think most people just don't want to hassle with a convertible ( there is a certain vanity with a convertible folks shy away from) and there is a large hole left in the market by the loss of the E30 then Silvia. There is also still the mid-lifers like me who have a second car and the '86 is perfect for a long commute. And the biggest lie is that the average new car buyer doesn't understand the difference between RWD and FWD. There are a lot of people who want RWD, even the light truck market is full of people who turned to trucks because they just don't like the feel of FWD.

The twins could be a large volume selling car as long as quality stays as high as Scion/Toyota. But I disagree that Subaru has a good reliability track record, they tend to be what I call warranty cars where they last to the 6 years then shortly after have major issues. Their handling of the NA 2.5L Forester and Outback head gasket issues since 1996 has been atrocious. It is very common for Honda and Toyotas to last 300k miles without ever doing more than changing tires, belts, and brakes. This was also the case for Subaru until '96, prior (70's, 80's, pre ODBII) their engine's were pretty bullet proof but when they released the 2.5 with ODBII they really never gave a solid fix. Subaru has a very small market share overall, I really don't think they are as healthy as people claim. Obviously Mazda is healthier (and that's not saying much) developing their own DI, Subaru needed Toyota $'s to pull it off.

I know in the autocross sub-forum here one guy has reported being on his 3rd engine with his FR-S while his S2k is still original driving the same sort of events. Its too early to tell, but the key to success of the twins won't be FI or a bigger engine, rather reliability.

I tend to think with Toyotas involvement and the high revving high hp/L FA20 development lend to expectations of an H4 that may be over engineered which is a good thing, iow they may last a long time with every day driving. I read Toyota was adamant against Subaru adding a turbo to the FA20 for the twins, I think this wasn't for Toyota wanting smooth throttle response but rather reliability (google 2005+ Forester turbo issues.) Also if we look at the other high compression direct injected engines (diesels) they tend to last forever. Crawford has said this is the best built Subaru engine in 20 years, I really hope so.

Personally I don't want FI for my dd FR-S, but I do want the twins to have several model years of high selling success. This keeps parts costs down, insurance rates down, and even service rates down because the car isn't a one-off rarely seen vehicle. The more popular a car the more people learn and share repair techniques and maintenance tips.

This car is a great daily driving commuting car poised to take significant market share from Civic Si, Mustang, and Genesis buyers. The key to long term success will be Toyota/Scion dependability.

[CSI:86]

Originally Posted by regal

I believe you are be right about OE FI.

But as far as DD practicality, I disagree with the comparison to the S2K. There are a lot more single men and women now days into their late 30's even later, lot of people put off having a family. The '86 is very practical if you have no kids, much more so than a convertible. I think most people just don't want to hassle with a convertible ( there is a certain vanity with a convertible folks shy away from) and there is a large hole left in the market by the loss of the E30 then Silvia. There is also still the mid-lifers like me who have a second car and the '86 is perfect for a long commute. And the biggest lie is that the average new car buyer doesn't understand the difference between RWD and FWD. There are a lot of people who want RWD, even the light truck market is full of people who turned to trucks because they just don't like the feel of FWD.

The twins could be a large volume selling car as long as quality stays as high as Scion/Toyota. But I disagree that Subaru has a good reliability track record, they tend to be what I call warranty cars where they last to the 6 years then shortly after have major issues. Their handling of the NA 2.5L Forester and Outback head gasket issues since 1996 has been atrocious. It is very common for Honda and Toyotas to last 300k miles without ever doing more than changing tires, belts, and brakes. This was also the case for Subaru until '96, prior (70's, 80's, pre ODBII) their engine's were pretty bullet proof but when they released the 2.5 with ODBII they really never gave a solid fix. Subaru has a very small market share overall, I really don't think they are as healthy as people claim. Obviously Mazda is healthier (and that's not saying much) developing their own DI, Subaru needed Toyota $'s to pull it off.

I know in the autocross sub-forum here one guy has reported being on his 3rd engine with his FR-S while his S2k is still original driving the same sort of events. Its too early to tell, but the key to success of the twins won't be FI or a bigger engine, rather reliability.

I tend to think with Toyotas involvement and the high revving high hp/L FA20 development lend to expectations of an H4 that may be over engineered which is a good thing, iow they may last a long time with every day driving. I read Toyota was adamant against Subaru adding a turbo to the FA20 for the twins, I think this wasn't for Toyota wanting smooth throttle response but rather reliability (google 2005+ Forester turbo issues.) Also if we look at the other high compression direct injected engines (diesels) they tend to last forever. Crawford has said this is the best built Subaru engine in 20 years, I really hope so.

Personally I don't want FI for my dd FR-S, but I do want the twins to have several model years of high selling success. This keeps parts costs down, insurance rates down, and even service rates down because the car isn't a one-off rarely seen vehicle. The more popular a car the more people learn and share repair techniques and maintenance tips.

This car is a great daily driving commuting car poised to take significant market share from Civic Si, Mustang, and Genesis buyers. The key to long term success will be Toyota/Scion dependability.

I agree. But the s2k was against the stigma of Honda back in the days. That is why s2k failed. It's like going to Ferrari and telling them to make a mass produced 4 cylinder NA 4 door sedan. It will surely fail.

I really hope the twins will do well like you say. Reliability is what will help with the resale value as well on a side note. If it is reliable enough in the medium run, it may have as good resale value as say a Honda Accord.

[Rayme]

The car doesn't need more power to sell good numbers. I will add that at the price the car is, it's going to be hard to be a "failure". It is cheaper than a civic SI over here, go figure.

[johnnie]

If they need to make it more profitable they will introduce models with more economical engines, maybe even diesel. Like the Celica over here that had a few engine options. If they do that i think they might introduce a step-up FI model.

If they don't i don't think there's money to be made on introducing an even more niche model.

[regal]

Originally Posted by ottopilot

The car doesn't need more power to sell good numbers. I will add that at the price the car is, it's going to be hard to be a "failure". It is cheaper than a civic SI over here, go figure.

Yes I agree, people are going to buy the '86 because of the Toyota reputation for trouble-free drivetrains along with the balanced sports car rear wheel driving experience. I mean this car is so much more of a pleasure to drive to work than a Civic there is just no comparison, its in an entirely different league.

The wild card is the Subaru engine. I know consumer reports rates Subaru high for quality but that is mainly initial quality. I've been researching Subaru engine's track record looking at "highest" miles threads at various Subaru forums. Now you can go to any Honda or Toyota forum and its common to find owners who have 300+k miles with no major engine work. The same can be said for pre '96 Subaru, but after that things aren't as good. There is one website dedicated to thousands of cases of headgasket failures on post 96 2.5L H4's spanning over a decade without the root cause taken care of. Then there is the '05 forester with turbo failures which total the engine, threads hundreds of pages long. Stories of certain Subaru H4's that need an aftermarket tune to prevent running lean/burning holes in pistons, etc. Even with the STI the highest miles I can find reported is a single example with 250k but its on its second engine. You really have to hunt for successful stories of subarus made since '96 with high miles, where-as Honda and Toyota it is just common place.

Hopefully the collaboration with Toyota has brought back the strong bullet proof Subaru engines that made them famous in the 80's and early 90's.

I think this more than anything will be the key to success, I believe the market for a fairly practical light weight rwd car like this has been highly underestimated and the sky's the limit for sales as long as the FA20 regains a solid track record.

[WolfpackS2k]

The interesting thing will be sales. If Honda lost money on the S2k project you have to wonder how much legs the twins will have. Honda completely pulled out of the sports car market after the S2k because it was a business failure, great car but sales were poor and they lost money. The S2k was more popular/harder to obtain than the twins in its first production year yet it still failed. We may see a huge decline in sales of the twins by the third year.

Originally Posted by CSI:86

Concerning s2k's failure, the reason it failed was because of its high price at that time and its complete impracticability. Honda is well known as a brand of affordable and practical cars. S2K was contradictory to both of those characteristics.

The twins are made by Toyota and Subaru. Both brands of affordable and practical cars as well. They got the affordability completely right. Practicality is right to some individuals and is not right to others. The twins will very unlikely be as big as a failure as the s2k.

Ummm, the S2000 was no failure. Honda was only going to sell it for a handful of years but kept building it for 10 years because it was so successful and popular. Sure sales tailed off the last 2-3 years of production. But by that point Honda had more than broken even on their investment. The S2000 had limited appeal, as it was a small convertible with a spartan interior, no automatic transmission option and limited creature comforts. However I'm glad they didn't "sell out" and offer it with an automatic transmission. I wish they had sold a fixed roof coupe, but that's a conversation for another day.

It's been voted one of the best sports cars of the last decade and will be a future classic. You can't measure it by the same metrics as the Twins, but definitely not a failure.

As to the OP, you can definitely fit a 2.5 liter engine under the hood. Just increase the bore and not the stroke.