2017 Toyota 86 - new name, styling, and more power

[pinoy_dorifto]

Thank GOD there's no turbo!

[Mr.Impreza]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

In the new generation they keep all the weaknesses and they're trying to move it closer to a commodity. More gadgets, more sound deadening material, better trim materials, more premium feel, more weight. The issue is that the new car will be closer to the competition and most importantly it will not have turbo.

Sorry, but it will not sell.

Yeah I don't see sales improving. I think they will just keep declining slowly. It seems that none of us want to upgrade and most buyers who haven't bought this haven't because they were waiting for a turbo model.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Mr.Impreza

Yeah I don't see sales improving. I think they will just keep declining slowly. It seems that none of us want to upgrade and most buyers who haven't bought this haven't because they were waiting for a turbo model.

I disagree. The move to a more mainstream car will open up the market for it not close it. You are basing your thoughts on what this forum says not the real world. I talk with the sales folks at my dealership frequently (does it surprise anybody I like to talk?) and they have not lost one single sale to somebody that wanted a turbo. They have lost many sales to the average person that took the car for a test drive and scared the crap out of them selves. They have also lost many sales to the people that took one look inside and wondered where all the gadgets were.


This version (much like the RS2) is not built for nor targeting the people on here and certainly was never intended to get the existing buyers to trade in. This version is built for the people that do not hang out on car forums, care more abut the little things that many of us did not want and feel the power it already has is more than enough.


They have already given our crowd a crack at it and now they are moving on. Not unusual and certainly far from the death of the car that the "enthusiasts" may fear.


Now what could cause it to still drop in sales is if they don't start advertising the damned thing. The promotion of the 13s up (at least around here) was abysmal at best. They probably were not to worried about pushing it since the plan was for small numbers and the first target market (most of us) would find it on their own. If targeting the general public they need to get out there and beat some drums to attract attention or your forecast may indeed become true.

[CatScan]

Originally Posted by Mr.Impreza

Yeah I don't see sales improving. I think they will just keep declining slowly. It seems that none of us want to upgrade and most buyers who haven't bought this haven't because they were waiting for a turbo model.

I could not care any less about a turbo in the decision to "upgrade" off the lot, or even as a first-time buyer.
HP is not the point, it's a crutch (like stupid plastic) for a crappy car.

TCoat is absolutely correct. I don't think Toyota has any idea how to market the 86 in the US, and from reading the story of the car, a burning desire to make it a success. He has said before (I think) that the FR-S went from being an oddball to start with under an oddball brand who wanted the car and knew what to do with it to the stodgy, boring corporate umbrella of Toyota.

[Mr.Impreza]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I disagree. The move to a more mainstream car will open up the market for it not close it. You are basing your thoughts on what this forum says not the real world. I talk with the sales folks at my dealership frequently (does it surprise anybody I like to talk?) and they have not lost one single sale to somebody that wanted a turbo. They have lost many sales to the average person that took the car for a test drive and scared the crap out of them selves. They have also lost many sales to the people that took one look inside and wondered where all the gadgets were.


This version (much like the RS2) is not built for nor targeting the people on here and certainly was never intended to get the existing buyers to trade in. This version is built for the people that do not hang out on car forums, care more abut the little things that many of us did not want and feel the power it already has is more than enough.


They have already given our crowd a crack at it and now they are moving on. Not unusual and certainly far from the death of the car that the "enthusiasts" may fear.


Now what could cause it to still drop in sales is if they don't start advertising the damned thing. The promotion of the 13s up (at least around here) was abysmal at best. They probably were not to worried about pushing it since the plan was for small numbers and the first target market (most of us) would find it on their own. If targeting the general public they need to get out there and beat some drums to attract attention or your forecast may indeed become true.

I agree about the Turbo point. In fact I agree with most of what you wrote.

I'm just thinking though, aren't most of the sales of these cars from enthusiasts? I know you are saying they are not targeting those buyers, but I just don't see a good percentage of potential buyers who are not enthusiasts buying this car.

I find an average person will sit inside one and think "wow...this is a bare bone car, the honda civic next door had way more features"

So it's why I find that the new model won't help with sales increasing.

Yes of course you will attract new buyers, but i don't think we will see a spike in sales and I really think the curve will just keep declining because most people who wanted this car bought it already.

[Mr.Impreza]

Originally Posted by CatScan

I could not care any less about a turbo in the decision to "upgrade" off the lot, or even as a first-time buyer.
HP is not the point, it's a crutch (like stupid plastic) for a crappy car.

TCoat is absolutely correct. I don't think Toyota has any idea how to market the 86 in the US, and from reading the story of the car, a burning desire to make it a success. He has said before (I think) that the FR-S went from being an oddball to start with under an oddball brand who wanted the car and knew what to do with it to the stodgy, boring corporate umbrella of Toyota.

Oh yeah i agree, Toyota needs to figure out a way to market this car. I'm wondering, anybody know how sales are for our cars in Europe/Asia?

[CatScan]

I think Toyota will be unable to resist the urge to "upscale" it. It's going to get more aggressive idiotic bling and useless doodads while ignoring what the thing is actually for.

Does anyone know (not speculation) who the 86 management team is now?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Mr.Impreza

I agree about the Turbo point. In fact I agree with most of what you wrote.

I'm just thinking though, aren't most of the sales of these cars from enthusiasts? I know you are saying they are not targeting those buyers, but I just don't see a good percentage of potential buyers who are not enthusiasts buying this car.

I find an average person will sit inside one and think "wow...this is a bare bone car, the honda civic next door had way more features"

So it's why I find that the new model won't help with sales increasing.

Yes of course you will attract new buyers, but i don't think we will see a spike in sales and I really think the curve will just keep declining because most people who wanted this car bought it already.

The very first batch usually goes to the real "enthusiasts" and slowly dilutes down over the life of the model. Keep in mind there are many of these cars across the US and Canada and I bet 90% of them never get driven as anything more than an inexpensive DD coupe. The impression that most of these are "enthusiast" cars is mostly driven by the internet since Joe/Jill Middlemanagement or Mrs/Mr Homemaker that buy the bulk of any car (yes even these) are simply not joining forums, commenting on reviews or otherwise making their overwhelming majority known. The true "enthusiast" is but a microbe on the back of the flea on the back of the dog that is the car buying public.


I understand that a pile of you guys are just starting out and at your income levels this seems like an expensive car. It is not! It is the perfect price point for a huge portion of the population that wasn't something to just drive back and forth to work


Notice I almost always say "enthusiast" as a quote? I do this because so many people seem to think that to be a "enthusiast" you have to live and breath cars. Again not the case. Is the man/woman that loves their little car even though they never race, mod, work on it or even drive it hard any less a car "enthusiast" then the guys that do some (or all) of those things? I do not believe they are. They are just a slightly different type of enthusiast the others that is all. Check through the internet and you will see there are Prius enthusiasts, pickup truck enthusiasts and yes even minivan enthusiasts. Just because they don't hang with our crowd does not dilute them as "car enthusiasts" So I guess that almost anybody attracted to this car be it as a DD grocery getter, hella flush Instagram like seeker or track day racer are all "enthusiasts" so in the long run you were correct.


This is why the model evolves to capture those that may be looking for something just slightly different then what there was so you can never say "everybody that wanted one bought it already". They did not want that one but they may very well want this one.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by CatScan

I think Toyota will be unable to resist the urge to "upscale" it. It's going to get more aggressive idiotic bling and useless doodads while ignoring what the thing is actually for.

Does anyone know (not speculation) who the 86 management team is now?

I had a great chart of the corporate structure but can't find it!
Ultimately what is shows is that Toyota Management have very little say in the long run. It is the Stockholder committee that truly runs the company. There are so many checks and balances with committees and reviews that even the CEO can be voted down.


All that is irrelevant anyway since Toyota (and any company) is going to what is best for them. They are not a charity and going to produce a certain car a certain way forever just because .0000000000002% of the world wide car buyer say they want it that way. We were lucky to see it in the first place much less expect it to stay the same.

[rastapete]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The very first batch usually goes to the real "enthusiasts" and slowly dilutes down over the life of the model. Keep in mind there are many of these cars across the US and Canada and I bet 90% of them never get driven as anything more than an inexpensive DD coupe. The impression that most of these are "enthusiast" cars is mostly driven by the internet since Joe/Jill Middlemanagement or Mrs/Mr Homemaker that buy the bulk of any car (yes even these) are simply not joining forums, commenting on reviews or otherwise making their overwhelming majority known. The true "enthusiast" is but a microbe on the back of the lea on the back of the dog that is the car buying public.


I understand that a pile of you guys are just starting out and at your income levels this seems like an expensive car. It is not! It is the perfect price point for a huge portion of the population that wasn't something to just drive back and forth to work


Notice I almost always say "enthusiast" as a quote? I do this because so many people seem to think that to be a "enthusiast" you have to live and breath cars. Again not the case. Is the man/woman that loves their little car even though they never race, mod, work on it or even drive it hard any less a car "enthusiast" then the guys that do some (or all) of those things? I do not believe they are. They are just a slightly different type of enthusiast the others that is all. Check through the internet and you will see there are Prius enthusiasts, pickup truck enthusiasts and yes even minivan enthusiasts. Just because they don't hang with our crowd does not dilute them as "car enthusiasts" So I guess that almost anybody attracted to this car be it as a DD grocery getter, hella flush Instagram like seeker or track day racer are all "enthusiasts" so in the long run you were correct.


This is why the model evolves to capture those that may be looking for something just slightly different then what there was so you can never say "everybody that wanted one bought it already". They did want that one but they may very well want this one.

100% agree with this. There are people who love their cars, who aren't modding a thing, aren't auto-xing, don't do track days, and think 'spring rate' is what hotels charge when the weather starts to get nicer. But they love their cars. And the 86/BRZ is an eminently lovable car with all of its 'idiosyncrasies' (relative to other cars in its range). It's hella sexy, handles great, and can not be mistaken for an econo-box.

[KalbiCool88]

You don't need a high end or exotic class car to turn heads neither.

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

[NLS8520]

I am sort of split on this mild refresh. It's reception really is getting sort of blown out of proportion. I have seen this happen many times over the years on car forums, first everyone bemoans and hates the new changes then slowly grow to like the changes until the next model appears. I have to think the front was changed for aerodynamic reasons and I have sort of grown to like it, although its not as good looking as the original 86. I like the rear treatments and headlight/tail lights as well. I personally see the interior as a huge improvement with the exception of the steering wheel controls. I think the refresh dates the current car quite a bit. I will reserve judgement until automotive press are able to test and provide feedback and then decide.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by rastapete

100% agree with this. There are people who love their cars, who aren't modding a thing, aren't auto-xing, don't do track days, and think 'spring rate' is what hotels charge when the weather starts to get nicer. But they love their cars. And the 86/BRZ is an eminently lovable car with all of its 'idiosyncrasies' (relative to other cars in its range). It's hella sexy, handles great, and can not be mistaken for an econo-box.

Yet in reality that is exactly what it is. A low cost car (forget all the sports car stuff for a second), good on gas (when driven normally), easy to drive (I mean to just drive like an average person) and quite reliable (moisture in tail lights and crickets do not make it unreliable). All it lacks for many is gadgets, a bit softer ride and some soundproofing. HMMMM it feels like I have heard about those changes someplace.


Oh and many marketing surveys have shown that the number one factor on deciding on a new car is "does it come in the colour I want"! Not RW/FW/AWD, not horse power, not even number of doors but freakin' colour! Once again the crowd on the forums are the exception not the rule.

[Mr.Impreza]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The very first batch usually goes to the real "enthusiasts" and slowly dilutes down over the life of the model. Keep in mind there are many of these cars across the US and Canada and I bet 90% of them never get driven as anything more than an inexpensive DD coupe. The impression that most of these are "enthusiast" cars is mostly driven by the internet since Joe/Jill Middlemanagement or Mrs/Mr Homemaker that buy the bulk of any car (yes even these) are simply not joining forums, commenting on reviews or otherwise making their overwhelming majority known. The true "enthusiast" is but a microbe on the back of the lea on the back of the dog that is the car buying public.


I understand that a pile of you guys are just starting out and at your income levels this seems like an expensive car. It is not! It is the perfect price point for a huge portion of the population that wasn't something to just drive back and forth to work


Notice I almost always say "enthusiast" as a quote? I do this because so many people seem to think that to be a "enthusiast" you have to live and breath cars. Again not the case. Is the man/woman that loves their little car even though they never race, mod, work on it or even drive it hard any less a car "enthusiast" then the guys that do some (or all) of those things? I do not believe they are. They are just a slightly different type of enthusiast the others that is all. Check through the internet and you will see there are Prius enthusiasts, pickup truck enthusiasts and yes even minivan enthusiasts. Just because they don't hang with our crowd does not dilute them as "car enthusiasts" So I guess that almost anybody attracted to this car be it as a DD grocery getter, hella flush Instagram like seeker or track day racer are all "enthusiasts" so in the long run you were correct.


This is why the model evolves to capture those that may be looking for something just slightly different then what there was so you can never say "everybody that wanted one bought it already". They did want that one but they may very well want this one.

Really appreciate your post on this. Thanks for taking the time to write such a long reply. It was great to read it and makes me open my eyes in a different way. It's very true what you say.

You know, i guess because I've lately been on this forum and looking at youube comments that my mind sometimes begins to think that nobody else is buying these cars and if they are, they are on this forum haha!

I also agree with price point, this is a cool car that anybody could technically enjoy! No wonder many automatics get sold also!

Originally Posted by rastapete

100% agree with this. There are people who love their cars, who aren't modding a thing, aren't auto-xing, don't do track days, and think 'spring rate' is what hotels charge when the weather starts to get nicer. But they love their cars. And the 86/BRZ is an eminently lovable car with all of its 'idiosyncrasies' (relative to other cars in its range). It's hella sexy, handles great, and can not be mistaken for an econo-box.

Very true also, agree 100%