follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook. Interested in the FT-1? Check out FT1Club
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Moto-East
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Scion FR-S Forum | Subaru BRZ Forum | Toyota 86 GT 86 Forum | AS1 Forum - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Engine, Exhaust, Transmission

Engine, Exhaust, Transmission Discuss the FR-S | 86 | BRZ engine, exhaust and drivetrain.


User Tag List
Doborder, orthojoe

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-30-2013, 01:52 PM   #57
Dezoris
Senior Member
 
Dezoris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Drives: FR-S
Location: IL
Posts: 2,848
Thanks: 516
Thanked 2,902 Times in 1,081 Posts
Mentioned: 148 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by regal View Post
It is unbelievable that there has been no official response to the issue. Your video has an error, there is no TSB in South Africa, just internet rumors. You should edit this. Even heard claims that the new calibration file was made and distributed by an EcuTek tech, nothing to do with Toyota.

This is not a minor issue or new platform quirk, this is a catastrophic engine failure mode.

The issue is one of four:
1. Poor assembly at Subaru
2. Heads too hot
3. Detonation from poor factory tune
4. Heads not machined properly for DI injector
I am pretty positive the African TSB is real as posted. It would be a very elaborate fake.

Going to say this based on experience, take it for what its worth. I have a very close friend who works for a large Japanese company, in the American division in the engineering complaint department. She does case studies on odd failures in their products (Very complex products).

They take these complaints in CRM and start to monitor other cases similar.

They are instructed to never acknowledge it has been an issue or is a problem. Never disclose to service or the customer past or present cases.

Internally inside US and Japanese engineering they take the data and either roll out fixes into manufacturing or to the service contractors.

My second experience was back in 2007 an independent study was launched which my dealer made me aware of testing trans fluid formulations in a 6 Speed Manual Honda Accord. There were reports all over the internet and finally in the news about almost every single 6SP manual trans model from Honda having issues with 3rd gear syncros.
Basically binding or popping out of gear.

I talked with people who had gone all the way to the top of Honda corporate structure about these issues. The same answer was given. They were unaware of any issue but will take the information and forward it on.

The truth was this issue was well know for almost 4 years, and Honda silently released one of the largest TSBs in their history. All that time they never admitted to or even once said or acknowledged it was a problem or IF they were working on it.

  • 2003-07 Honda Accord V-6 with M/T
  • 2008 Accord V-6 coupe with M/T
  • 2006-08 Civic Si coupe
  • 2007-08 Civic Si sedan
  • 2003 Acura 3.2CL with M/T
  • 2002-06 Acura RSX with six-speed
  • 2004-08 Acura TL with M/T
Point being I worked with so many people on that issue. Having enough experience to honestly say. Japanese companies like Honda, Toyota, Subaru etc. the culture has and will be limited transparency.


They don't admit fault. In this car you won't get straight answers. But what you can do it try to be as open as possible about the issue.


As it relates to this car, the seal issue is nothing like what I dealt with on the Honda side. We have so few reports on the forums of true failure that it's hard to gain any real traction except to make people aware it could be a problem and how to keep an eye out for potential symptoms. That was the goal of this video and article. Not to be an alarmist or cry foul.

If and when I see real data larger QTYs of cars with this failure my tone will change.
Dezoris is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Dezoris For This Useful Post:
dabocx (07-30-2013), ftc~brz (07-30-2013), Sportsguy83 (07-30-2013), suaveflooder (07-30-2013), thill (07-30-2013), topazsparrow (07-30-2013), whataboutbob (06-11-2014)
Old 07-30-2013, 05:08 PM   #58
thill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Drives: 16 C7 Z51 (previous BRZ owner)
Location: North Pole
Posts: 2,728
Thanks: 327
Thanked 1,450 Times in 795 Posts
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Just look at the recent pedal accelerator issue for Toyota. Millions of cars recalled, an estimated $2.5B loss due to the recall, and Toyota is still fighting people in court on the issue and has the potential to lose millions if not billions more. They will deny and cover this one all the way to the bank.

Worked out okay for Toyota in the end. They are having strong sales and their public image seems to still be intact.
thill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2013, 05:14 PM   #59
Dezoris
Senior Member
 
Dezoris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Drives: FR-S
Location: IL
Posts: 2,848
Thanks: 516
Thanked 2,902 Times in 1,081 Posts
Mentioned: 148 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by thill View Post
Just look at the recent pedal accelerator issue for Toyota. Millions of cars recalled, an estimated $2.5B loss due to the recall, and Toyota is still fighting people in court on the issue and has the potential to lose millions if not billions more. They will deny and cover this one all the way to the bank.

Worked out okay for Toyota in the end. They are having strong sales and their public image seems to still be intact.
Yes, it's built into their business culture.
Dezoris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2013, 05:33 PM   #60
suaveflooder
Senior Member
 
suaveflooder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Drives: 2013 FR-S
Location: San Diego
Posts: 2,297
Thanks: 2,693
Thanked 1,048 Times in 663 Posts
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by thill View Post
I simply am not going to worry until there is an issue and then I will get it addressed one way or the other.
Agreed.
__________________
suaveflooder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2013, 05:35 PM   #61
CSG Mike
 
CSG Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 11,099
Thanks: 6,893
Thanked 10,452 Times in 5,023 Posts
Mentioned: 807 Post(s)
Tagged: 13 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Insano View Post
For your suspected causes, I would think there is very good chance it is combo of those things as well as the obvious fact of the above 5200 RPM non-existence of adjustments which should be in place which are not. And agree it is most likely #2 & #3.

Besides the obvious of everyday temps where people live (heat contributor), another potential contributor not getting much attention which would possibly contribute to #3 - of the people with engine problems, who runs below 94/93 octane fuel? I'm guessing CSGMike runs 91 since he is in Cali. I know he said he had race gas in when one of his issues occurred, but this was after he admittedly already had popping/detonation issues which began when he was on 91 Cali octane (assumption by me). So for people with problems curious what fuel they normally run for DD and track days.

For the part about the FI tuning and better control of ignition, that makes no sense to me. Ignition control should be same on NA or FI setup. Which tuners are saying this? Or were you saying that when they go further with ignition retardation it drops power a bit, but they have same level of control. That would make sense. And I would sacrifice a bit of power for a safe tune every time. So no worries for me if I'm NA and they need to sacrifice 5-10 whp for zero detonation. That should just be an expectation.
This may be a bit late, but the 2nd engine exclusively saw high octane when it was running at the track.

Additionally, Track Warrior's car was always on 93 or higher (iirc).

I'm leaning toward #3.
CSG Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2013, 05:45 PM   #62
Frost
VTEC kicked in yo!
 
Frost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Drives: 05 Vitz, 04 S2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 1,050
Thanks: 196
Thanked 461 Times in 323 Posts
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Excellent video man. I wish I had the time and capability to make something so well captured and thought out for my day job stuff (I too dabble in technical repairs and troubleshooting).

I wouldn't go so far as to say it is a Japanese thing but really a large corporation thing.

The problem with large mega corps is that if the little minions tell the public that there is a problem, then that becomes a PR issue. So it is simply EASIER to tell the minions to collect and pass it up but never admit to anything. Admission will mean lawsuits, etc. as well so why would anyone want to admit anything?

Case and point: Jeep on their exploding fuel tanks. Didn't happen frequently because rear ending isn't a daily thing but when it did happen, there seems to be a high occurance and yet their first stance was "THERE IS NOTHING WRONG!" and then a silent recall but still screaming "NOTHING WRONG".

I am beginning to wonder if Toyota is looking into alternatives to better control the manufacturing of this vehicle. I find it funny how Subaru claims it came up with most of this car (Toyota on the other hand says it came up with the concept and styling) but are eerily silent when issues on build quality come up lol.

I am looking to buy sometime mid next year. If this keeps up and issues aren't squashed, the MX5 is a very solid backup.
Frost is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Frost For This Useful Post:
CSG Mike (07-30-2013)
Old 07-30-2013, 06:29 PM   #63
xjohnx
Grip>Slip
 
xjohnx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: 13 SWP BRZ Ltd - Innovate Powered!
Location: RVA
Posts: 3,524
Thanks: 655
Thanked 1,678 Times in 1,016 Posts
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Do we know if the failures span across all 3 injector types? Or is it limited to one of the specific sets?
xjohnx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2013, 06:32 PM   #64
wootwoot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: FRS
Location: Cali
Posts: 1,550
Thanks: 188
Thanked 456 Times in 264 Posts
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by xjohnx View Post
Do we know if the failures span across all 3 injector types? Or is it limited to one of the specific sets?
That is a very good question....
wootwoot is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2013, 06:46 PM   #65
Skyllz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Drives: Something fun.
Location: Canada
Posts: 106
Thanks: 39
Thanked 54 Times in 19 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
So in short...

To avoid this issue, get a tune on your car to address the lean condition, even in stock form and drive happy?

Or there has been pooped motors with a tune?
Skyllz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2013, 07:49 PM   #66
clintavo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Drives: BRZ
Location: 91351
Posts: 128
Thanks: 106
Thanked 35 Times in 23 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I'd like to know how many of the problem cars had oil coolers?
clintavo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2013, 07:52 PM   #67
Sportsguy83
I Love custom Turbo kits
 
Sportsguy83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Drives: Limited BRZ
Location: Miami
Posts: 10,463
Thanks: 19,441
Thanked 7,960 Times in 4,196 Posts
Mentioned: 431 Post(s)
Tagged: 12 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyllz View Post
So in short...

To avoid this issue, get a tune on your car to address the lean condition, even in stock form and drive happy?

Or there has been pooped motors with a tune?
At least since the tuners have incorporated the fix into their tunes, no one has come forward saying that after they got the supposed fix and before having any symptoms, they have blown their motor.
Sportsguy83 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Sportsguy83 For This Useful Post:
Skyllz (07-30-2013)
Old 07-30-2013, 08:00 PM   #68
suaveflooder
Senior Member
 
suaveflooder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Drives: 2013 FR-S
Location: San Diego
Posts: 2,297
Thanks: 2,693
Thanked 1,048 Times in 663 Posts
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyllz View Post
So in short...

To avoid this issue, get a tune on your car to address the lean condition, even in stock form and drive happy?

Or there has been pooped motors with a tune?
I would suggest skipping the tune and just driiving happy....at least until after your warranty is up. Don't give the dealer any reason to void the warranty on the engine. A tune might just do that. Toyota and Subaru won't look too fondly at you changing their factory tune if something happens to go wrong with the engine.

The symptoms will be pretty obvious if they arise. I've mentioned this in a couple threads, but my plan is to keep the engine 100% stock until 60k miles (I'll hit that before the 6 year mark). On a new engine with new technology, this is probably the best rout unless you have money to replace parts that break.
__________________
suaveflooder is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to suaveflooder For This Useful Post:
Skyllz (07-30-2013), thill (07-30-2013)
Old 07-30-2013, 08:13 PM   #69
thill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Drives: 16 C7 Z51 (previous BRZ owner)
Location: North Pole
Posts: 2,728
Thanks: 327
Thanked 1,450 Times in 795 Posts
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by suaveflooder View Post
I would suggest skipping the tune and just driiving happy....at least until after your warranty is up. Don't give the dealer any reason to void the warranty on the engine. A tune might just do that. Toyota and Subaru won't look too fondly at you changing their factory tune if something happens to go wrong with the engine.

The symptoms will be pretty obvious if they arise. I've mentioned this in a couple threads, but my plan is to keep the engine 100% stock until 60k miles (I'll hit that before the 6 year mark). On a new engine with new technology, this is probably the best rout unless you have money to replace parts that break.
I agree. I don't usually keep my cars 6 years anyway, but if I suspect I will, I will also pick up a Subaru extended waranty if this is still an ongoing issue for my model year.
thill is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to thill For This Useful Post:
suaveflooder (07-30-2013)
Old 07-30-2013, 08:18 PM   #70
xjohnx
Grip>Slip
 
xjohnx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: 13 SWP BRZ Ltd - Innovate Powered!
Location: RVA
Posts: 3,524
Thanks: 655
Thanked 1,678 Times in 1,016 Posts
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by wootwoot View Post
That is a very good question....
Can those of you who have had this issue and know what number your DI's were (or still have the warranty receipt) chime in?

On another note, I just confirmed that I too can see the # on my injector without yanking everything. Thanks, @Dezoris.

xjohnx is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to xjohnx For This Useful Post:
Satanasso (09-17-2015), suaveflooder (07-30-2013)
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Direct Injector Failure Poll track_warrior Issues | Warranty | Recalls / TSB 553 01-12-2017 07:12 PM
Driver's side window seal/door seal KAB-FRS Issues | Warranty | Recalls / TSB 253 08-24-2016 12:56 PM
Direct Injector Leaking Carwhisperer Issues | Warranty | Recalls / TSB 354 03-23-2016 12:56 PM
Injector / seal failure or Miss-fire codes.. please post here mad_sb Engine, Exhaust, Transmission 374 03-15-2015 03:01 PM
Direct Injector's Leaking Carwhisperer Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 1 05-11-2013 09:31 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.